Täällä oli linkki englannin kieliseen Gipsy revival and Israel kirjoitukseen joka koski Israelia ja mustalaisia, joten tässä nyt sit käännös suomeksi siitä:
Mustalaisherätys ja Israel
Mustalaisten ja juutalaisten välillä on monia yhtäläisyyksiä. Mustalaiset ovat myös diasporassa (hajotuksessa) ja asuvat monissa maissa kaikilla mantereilla. Usein heitä halveksitaan. Sadat tuhannet heistä kuolivat holokaustissa; he ovat ilman kotimaata ja tulevat aina olemaankin, koska heillä ei ole lupausta paluusta isiensä maahan kuten juutalaisilla. Heidän alkuperänsä on hautautunut historian hämärään. Jotkin teoriat sijoittavat heidän alkujuurensa Intiaan, josta he muuttivat länteen, kun taas toiset haluaisivat uskoa heidän olevan yksi Israelin kadonneista heimoista.
Varmaa on, että he olivat myös juutalaisten tavoin vaeltava kansa ja kokivat hylkimistä ja vainoa minne tahansa menivätkään. He puhuvat sen maan kieltä, minne ovat asettuneet asumaan, mutta puhuvat myös omaa mustalaiskieltään, joka on sukua nykypäivän romanian kielelle.
Viime vuosikymmeninä jotakin alkoi tapahtua mustalaisille (tai romaneille, kuten heitä kohteliaammin nimitetään), kun lähetystyöntekijät tulivat yhä aktiivisemmiksi heidän keskuudessaan. Useat kirkkokunnat, kuten reformoidut kirkot ja helluntaiseurakunnat, perustivat mustalaisseurakuntia, ja vaikka kristittyjen prosentuaalinen määrä on vielä suhteellisen pieni, monet mustalaiset kääntyivät Jumalan puoleen, katuivat ja ottivat vastaan pelastuksen Lunastajassaan Jeesuksessa.
Yhdeksänkymmentäluvun loppupuolella kääntymysten tahti alkoi kiihtyä, kun Hengellä täytetyt pastorit vetivät monia heistä Herran yhteyteen. Yksi mustalaiskristittyjen ominaispiirre on voimakas samaistuminen juutalaisiin. He tuntevat ikään kuin sukulaisuutta, erityisesti samanlaisten historioittensa kautta, mutta heissä syntyy myös mielenliikutusta, kun he käsittävät Herran uskollisuuden Hänen pitäessään lupauksensa omalle kansalleen. Ja he alkoivat saada selville, kuinka vahvat kristinuskon juutalaiset juuret todella ovat.
Vuonna 1999 ryhmä mustalaispastoreita ja muusikkoja osallistui lehtimajanjuhlaan Jerusalemissa. He tekivät tämän suurin henkilökohtaisin uhrauksin, mutta olivat kiitollisia siitä avusta, jonka Kristillinen Suurlähetystö antoi heille majoituksen, ruoan ym. muodossa. Heille oli aivan uutta tavata kaikkialta maailmasta niin monia kristittyjä, joille oli yhteistä rakkaus Israelia kohtaan. Juhlan palvonta ja ilo innoitti heitä, erityisesti koska mustalaiset ovat juutalaisten tavoin erittäin hyviä muusikkoja ja monet heidän lauluistaan tuovat mieleen israelilaiset rytmit.
Ryhmän palattua Unkariin ja Itä-Eurooppaan heidän ja Wallenberg-keskuksen välille kehittyi luonteva suhde. Koska heillä ei ollut varaa uuteen Israelin-matkaan seuraavana vuonna, he päättivät pitää oman lehtimajanjuhlansa. Tämä tapahtui Nagvesedissä Itä-Unkarissa ja se pidettiin kesän lomakautena, niin että useammat uskovat saattoivat osallistua. Johann, joka oli yhä Suurlähetystön johtaja, oli henkilökohtaisesti läsnä neuvonantajana. Tästä juhlasta on nyt tullut jokavuotinen tapahtuma, ja useat Jerusalemin lehtimajanjuhlan muusikot ja laulajat, sellaiset kuin Ben ja Vera Karlson, ovat ottaneet osaa.
Muutamia muitakin mustalaisten lehtimajanjuhlia järjestetään muualla Unkarissa, ja syyskuussa 2005 ensimmäinen mustalaisten juutalaistyylinen lehtimajanjuhla pidettiin Mukatchevon kaupungissa Ukrainassa. Monet uskovat ottivat osaa, ja pastoreita saapui koko Ukrainan Karpaattien alueelta. Jälkeenpäin he kaikki todistivat siitä, kuinka paljon he olivat oppineet uskonsa juutalaisista juurista. Messiaanisia juutalaisryhmiä Ukrainan muista osista oli myös paikalla.
Taivaan valtakunnan mahdollisuudet ovat rajattomat mustalaisten keskuudessa. Monet pastoreista käyvät Wallenberg-keskuksessa ja haluavat liittyä sen palvelustyöhön ja näkyyn, ja henkilökuntaa kutsutaan alituisesti osallistumaan mustalaiskokouksiin ja panemaan merkille, mitä heidän sosiaalisen edistymisensä hyväksi tehdään. Näyttää selvältä, että on aika kannattaa ei vain Siionia vaan myös mustalaiskansaa. Raamatussa ja evankeliumeissa on vastaus: totuus etsikää ensin Jumalan valtakuntaa
niin teille annetaan lisäksi kaikki tämä pätee todella mustalaisiin.
Unkarin hallitus, jota Euroopan unioni oli painostanut kohentamaan romanikansan sosiaalisia oloja, ei tiennyt mitä tehdä, koska pelkkä avun antaminen heille toimi odotusten vastaisesti. Sitten otettiin yhteys pastoreihin ja joitakin heistä jopa tavattiin Wallenberg-keskuksessa yritettäessä määrittää, mikä heidän menestyksensä avain oli. Vastaus oli selvä: kuten tapahtuu meidän kaikkien elämässä, johda mustalainen ensin Herran tykö katumuksessa, ja koko hänen ajattelutapansa ja elämäntyylinsä muuttuu. Hän etsii työtä, muuttaa elämänpiirinsä ja kehittää Kristuksen kaltaisen luonteen, joka muuttaa hänen elämänsä. Ja mustalaiset suorastaan rakastavat Herran palvomista musiikillisine lahjoineen.
Noin 40 mustalaispastoria, joilla oli erilaiset kirkolliset taustat, hyväksyivät yhteisen julistuksen eräässä yksipäiväisessä konferenssissa Wallenberg-keskuksessa 18. elokuuta 2005.
Wallenberg-keskus on sitoutunut tekemään kaiken voitavansa tukeakseen tätä herätystä romanikansan keskuudessa. Ei ainoastaan omaksi pelastuksekseen vaan myös Israelin tähden, joita he niin voimakkaasti tukevat; voimakas Pyhän Hengen liikehdintä heidän keskuudessaan tulee todellakin kiihottamaan monia juutalaisia kateuteen.
Käännös suomeksi: Gipsy revival and Israel
Kyösti Roth
111104
0Äänestä
Muut lukivat myös
Odottaa vastausta
Näihin keskusteluihin ei ole vielä vastattu. Ole ensimmäinen.
Vastaukset 11
Vanhimmat
Onko tästä aiheesta suunnitteilla mitään keskustelupaneelia tms. koska aihe selvästi kiinnostaa? Paneelissa saisi olla yleisön mahdollisuus kysyä aiheesta askartavia asioita ja asiantuntijat/asiaan perehtyneet vastaisivat. Keskustelupaneeli voisi olla vielä mielellään sellainen, jossa olis eri näkemyksiä omaavia ihmisiä. Tällöin keskustelusta saataisiin laajempi, syvältä luotaavampi ja ihmiset saisi näkökulmia enemmän omaan pohdintaan. Aikamies
Hieno ehdotus Sinulta. Olen itsekin ajatellut asiaa jo oikeastaan aika pitkään. Mutta mistä löytäisimme ehdottamiasi asiantuntijoita. Asiaan perehtyneitä kyllä löytyy näin uskoisin, mutta tietysti lähtökohdat jokaisella asiaan perehtyneellä on niin erilaisia, kuten esim. se tutkimus jossa väitetään suomalaisten olevan Israelin kansaan kuuluvia, ja tanskalaisten Daanilaisia eli daanin sukukuntaa ja englantilaisten ties mitä sukukuntaa jne. Olen tutustunut mm. siihen tutkimukseen ja niin kaukaa haettuja juttuja ne on, että en usko että kovin hedelmällistä keskustelua asiasta saisi aikaan. Mutta ainahan voisi yrittää. Useimmat asiaa tieteellisin menetelmin tutkineet henkilöt eivät usko Jumalan ilmoitukseen raamattuun mitenkään eivätkä pidä raamatun sanomisia asiasta minään. Eli kai jollain tapaa olisi hyvä rajata keskustelijoita joko niihin pelkästään jotka eivät usko raamatun ilmoitukseen tai sitten niihin jotka uskovat siihen että raamattukin voi antaa jotain vastauksia/osavastauksia asiasta. En tiedä, mut ehdotuksesi on hyvä. Ja ehdottomasti pohdinnan arvoinen.
..heti alkuun että paneeli ei olis tilaisuus jossa alkaisi kaalolle tyypillinen tappelu siintä ketä on oikeassa tai ketä on väärässä. Sen voisi lyhyesti käsikirjoittaa. Keskustelulla olis puolueeton juontaja, joka jakaa puheenvuorot. Asiaan perehtyneet ihmiset kertosivat omien tutkimustensa, (ja tunteidensa) ja kaiken muun pohjalta mihin ovat päässeet ja mitä matkalla on tullut vastaan. Korostan että siellä olisi myös lupa kertoa tunteistaan ja esim. Jumalan ja Raamatun valossa koetuista ahaa-elämyksistä. Sitten tulisi osio, jossa yleisölle annetaan mahdollisuus esittää kysymyksiä, joita asiaan perehtyneiden kertomukset ovat mahollisesti herättäneet. Ei siis voittajia, ei hävijöitä, vaan rauhallinen ja hyvässä yhteisymmärryksessä läpiviety keskustelu niille, joita aihe kiinnostaa. Terv. Aikamies
Ok Aikamies, tuossa on jo aika hyvät suuntaviivat, pitäis vielä miettiä ketä keskustelijoita siihen paneeliin tulisi, eli ketkä olisivat kiinnostuneita kertomaan omista tutkimuksistaan. Kun en oikein tiedä ketkä ovat asiaa aktiivisesti tutkineet. Luulisin että olisi järkevää saada kuitenkin joitakin asiaa tuntevia keskustelijoita ensin käyttämään omat puheenvuoronsa pohjaksi keskustelulle ja yleisön kysymyksille. Täytyypä vähän tutkia ketä sinne saisi varsinaisen paneelin keskustelijoiksi.
todella tuntee juutalaisuutta, juutalaisia tapoja, lähi-idän historiaa, heprealaisen raamatun kirjoitusten syntyä, koska kirjoitettu, keille ja miksi ja mikä niissä on historiallisesti totta mikä tarinaa. Yliopistolta sellaisen ainakin saisitte. Pelkän mututunteen tai oman mielikuvituksen varassa on turhaa keskustella yhtään mistään, se on silkkaa ajanhukkaa. Sivustoillasi on muuten virheitä vaikka millä mitalla, mutta on näköjään melko toivotonta yrittää saada niihin korjausta.
Ole hyvä , ja kerro ne virheet. Niin katsotaan ja tutkitaan yhdessä mitä ne virheet on ! Sen minä olen vuosien varrella huomannut, että olet kova valehtelemaan. Olet oikia HÖRHÖ Ei linkissä ollut Kirjoittanut: novvoi 9.4.2009 klo 19.48 muuta kuin fundamentaalikristillistä tulkintaa raamatusta, kappale sieltä toinen täältä, siihen väliin Jeesusta ja lopun aikaa, taisi kristinuskon saatanakin vilahtaa jossain.Ei kirjoittajalla ole mitään tietoa Raamatun synnystä, muinaisen Juudan tai Israelin historiasta tai juutalaisista tavoista, runsaasti omia luuloja kylläkin. Jos jostain sattuisi löytymään ihmisiä joilla olisi yhteyttä 2500 vuoden taakse, siihen pieneen määrään israelilaisia jotka siirettiin ja jotka eivät palanneet tai liittyneet Babelin eksiiliin tulleiseen juutalaisiin, heidän Israeliin pääsynsä ehdottomana edellytyksenä olisi kääntyminen juutalaisuuteen.En tosin ymmärrä millä perusteella tällainen ryhmä voitaisiin identifoida, ei kukaan missään enää tunnusta/noudata sitä uskontoa joka israelilaisilla oli, mitään ryhmää ei ole voitu liittää historiallisesti israelilaisiin, eikä voida liittää geneettisestikään muuta kuin lähi-itään koska israelilaisilla ei ollut naapurikansoistaan poikkeavaa geenistöä. Millään ryhmällä joka on ilmottautunut Israelin "lapsiksi" ei ole ollut geneettistä yhteyttä lähi-itään, ei ole romaneillakaan.Koska Israel kuitenkin haluaa lisäväestöä se on ottanut vastaan joitakin tällaisia itse julistautuneita Israelin lapsia, kaikki ovat olleet ei-kristittyä väestöä ja halukkaita kääntymään juutalaisuuteen. Vielä yksi asia:ei ole kristittyjä juutalaisia juutalainen joka käänty kristityksi, on sen jälkeen kristitty eikä enää juutalainen. täältä Kirjoittanut: tuloo 28.5.2008 klo 23.33 Erehtyminen on inhimillistä. Se että myöntää erehtyneensä on paha moka. Vastaa tähän viestiin Kerro kaverille tästä viestistä Ilmoita asiattomasta viestistä Toi oli Kirjoittanut: Hyvin sanottu :)) 29.5.2008 klo 02.37 novvoi on ollut aika riippakivenä täällä palstalla tämän Romanit=Israel asian kanssa mutta vaikka kuinka epäilis ja vaihtelis mieliä niin ei kannata myöntää erehtyneensä :] luve hyvin tarkaan Kirjoittanut: sairas 29.5.2008 klo 19.30 http://www.imninalu.net/traditionsRoma.htm#Elijah and the bull was also the emblem that Israelites chose to represent God (Exodus 32:4), later reintroduced by the separated Kingdom of Israel (1Kings 12:28). Bullfighting was practised by some Mithraist peoples of the Middle East, but never in India, and some elements in Romany tradition may be traced back to a sojourn in Persia before they reached India (because these elements are of Zoroastrian influence, not Islamic). Even though Indians do not kill animals, ancient Indo-Aryans and the Scythians of India practised horse sacrifice, but never any bovine was slaughtered! Roma's favourite food is beef, but they would never eat horse or kill one; Indo-Aryans would never kill a bovine, but in ancient times, they slaughtered horses... Details like these abound. It is also an undeniable fact that Roma have never felt any kind of attraction for India, and that they have not been interested in going there until they were told that they came from that land. Yet, Roma do not feel at home in a country having such a different and contrasting character. Honest scholars should review their theories before insisting in what is untenable and incoherent. Instead of stopping their research at a certain point in history, they should go further back with the historic events to ancient times, research about the peoples that arrived in India from the Middle East, why they settled there and how they lived there ‒ being a land where they found no persecution, it is natural that Roma established there until the situation was no longer good, in the same way as today many Roma settled in the United States or Brazil and it is very unlikely that they will leave those countries unless the situation turns negative and threatening for their survival. Links Myths, Hypotheses and Facts about the Origin of Roma WebRing JERUSALEM Join Now Ring Hub Random Prev Next Romanestan WebRing This Romanestan site is owned by Im nin'alu. [ Previous 5 Sites| Previous | Next | Next 5 Sites | Random Site | List Sites ] Angrusti Romani "EVEN IF THERE BE NO MERCY LEFT IN THE WORLD, THE GATES OF HEAVEN WILL NEVER BE BARRED" Rabbi Shalom Shabazi A tribute to the memory of Ofra Haza, the most beautiful voice of all times, the brightest shining star of Israel, who on 17 Adar I 5760 passed through the gates of Heaven. Notice: To have a better view of these pages, it is necessary to set the Flat Brush and Bangle fonts (available here in zipped format). The dates in this site are based on the Jewish calendar. To view the corresponding conventional calendar dates, click here: Perpetual Jewish-Civil Calendar. his site regards to history and culture of two peoples living in diaspora, that have shared the same suffering under the Shoah: Jews and Roma (with the word "Rom" I refer to all Gypsies and Sinti). Two peoples whose history appears mingled, their destiny is mixed up, their origins may be common Many of the hypotheses exposed in this site are based on biblical sources, supported by archaeological proofs. The science may not duly consider them but I would like to point out that, whenever scientific research has been done with the purpose of denying what the Bible says, they have always confirmed the biblical truth. The author of this site upholds: The legitimate right of all Jews to live in their homeland, Eretz Yisrael, and to possess the whole territory, as it is shown in the map The exclusive right of the People of Israel to possess the whole city of Yerushalayim. The right of all Roma to keep and express their own culture, and to travel freely throughout all nations as a traveller people. Hebrews belong to the Semitic stock. This is confirmed by history, culture, spirituality and language (but language is not taken as the main reference). But regarding the stock to which Roma belong, there is not any certainty. On a language basis, they have supposed an Indian background, but the link between Roma and Indians is only linguistic. There is not any history that can be documented; the culture of Roma has not any connection to those of Indian peoples, and even less relationship with their spirituality. The spiritual realm of Roma is closer to that of Hebrews. It is on the basis of these facts, culture and spirituality , that I suggest my hypotheses about their probable origin and history before their arrival in the Indus valley. Few of us can claim any direct experience with Gypsies; they generally stay on the periphery of our society and our consciousness. My brother-in-law defended a Rom who had been arrested for filing two insurance claims on the same stolen car. I remember in particular that the Rom had been found guilty by the Gypsy court, the kris, not for having committed the crime, but for having been caught. I remember that my brother-in-law was fully expecting the man to skip the bail the firm had put up for him. I also remember my interpretation of the case, a seemingly logical interpretation, but one made without any understanding of marime, the central value in Gypsy society. This value defines the shape and boundaries of their natural and spiritual universe, social interaction, judicial functions, many of their rites, and their interactions with Gaje (non-Gypsies). In this paper, the work of Carol Miller and Anne Sutherland provided much of my information on marime. "The one thing I always do... I'm strict... is to wash my face and take care of my razor right. If there isn't a face towel, I use my children's T shirt. Sometimes when the soap falls out on the floor and I don't have any more, I look at it and it's hard (to refrain from picking the soap up), but like the razor falling on the floor or being used for something else (than intended ritual use), I can always tell if it's marime. I break out in a rash." (Miller 42) marime is sometimes translated as 'ritual pollution or avoidance'. In fact both its definition and its expression are complex. It can be basically divided into issues of defilement and social rejection, both of which are called marime, and which influence each other. In terms of marime as defilement, all things are classified as either wuzho (pure) or marime (impure/defiled). The wuzho/marime opposition is expressed in several ways: the upper and lower body, the inner and outer body, inner and outer territory and, by extension, Gypsy and non Gypsy (Gaje). These distinctions pervade daily habits such as washing and eating, age and sex roles, and contact both with fellow Gypsies and with Gaje. The body is the most immediate 'map' of the distinction of wuzho/marime. The upper body, especially the mouth because of its ability to take food into the body, is wuzho. By extension, both spit and vomit are wuzho and considered to have curative powers (especially ghost vomit-the spirit world is a very real concern). The lower body, especially the genitals, is marime. Since marime status is spread from object to object through contact, all upper-body clothes are washed separately from lower body clothing, and washed in separate containers, which are reserved exclusively for those clothes. Women's clothes, because of women's periodic marime status (due to menstruation), are washed separately, as are children's clothes. An apron, interestingly, may be washed with upper body clothing because of its role in cleanliness and food preparation. Also, all cookware and tableware, since it comes into contact with food, is washed in its own container. Marime status is spread through contact, but contact is not limited to physical contact. According to Miller, actions such as yawning or looking sleepy -"because 'it means you're thinking about going to bed'"- or discussion of childbirth at the table are taboo. (Miller 42) Even a shadow might cast suspicion. Okely cites the case of a traveller at a Town Hall luncheon explaining why he stopped eating: "I could not finish my cheese. A shadow has fallen across it. It is one of our customs. You do not know our customs. We cannot expect you to understand." (Okely 80) Several authors argue that marime, and the many rituals that express marime, provide boundary maintenance: "Ideas about separating, purifying, demarcating and punishing transgressions have as their main function to impose system on inherently untidy experience, exaggerating difference between within and without, above and below, male and female, etc." (Douglas, in Miller 41) And that this is especially important in maintaining a cohesive Gypsy community in the face of Gaje persecution and attitudes toward them as pariahs. The disposal of things that are marime also reflects the inner/outer expression of boundary maintenance. Marime cannot be washed away. Things that become marime are either burned (ideally), thrown away or, if necessary, scoured with a special cleanser. Garbage is to be kept at a distance -"chucked out"- outside a camp's periphery: "Whereas Gorgio (Gaje) hygiene consists to some extent in containing, covering, or hiding dirt, for the Gypsies, polluting dirt can be visible, but it must be kept a clear distance from the clean... Gorgios accumulate and store their rubbish in bins in every room in their houses. A traveller woman stated, «People say we're dirty. They don't see the we think they're dirty. Sometimes you go to houses and maybe the outside and the gardens look all right. But you should see what's inside.»." (Okely 86-87) Another reference to the inner/outer opposition that Okely mentions is that Gypsies who are accused of illicit sex are said to have "gone behind the hedge". If fact, there is another category, melalo, which approximates Gaje notions of being dirty. A man who has gotten dirty from an activity, such as working on a car, will be melalo, someone we would say is dirty. But he will still be wuzho. What is important from the Gypsy point of view is not whether something is melalo, which is after all just dirt, but its quality, whether it is morally clean. (Anne Sutherland argues that melalo is not morally neutral but occupies a middle ground between the poles set by wuzho/marime. According to Sutherland, certain groups, for example non-Rom Gypsies (and marriages between them and Roms), Kalderasha (a middle-caste Rom nation), and certain spirits occupy this 'questionable' purity status. She further cites the belief that, while a dirty household is melalo, the spirit responsible for some Rom diseases may come and eat off of the dishes in a melalo household.) Hands, because of the jobs they perform, are transitional in status. They cater to lower-body needs, but are also required at times to be wuzho. Washing therefore becomes an especially important ritual for hands. They are washed, using separate soap and towels, anytime they may become marime: making the bed (because of its contact with the lower-body), putting on shoes, even adjusting one's belt. A Rom may even wash "his face and hands whenever he feels his luck leaving him during the day". (Miller 47) Marime distinctions also extend to age and sex roles. Children are innocent of marime. They are often forgiven for not following marime laws and rituals, because they are new, pure, don't know any better and because a parent's "love is largely expressed through being unable 'to refuse anything'". (Miller 43) Old age confers similar wuzho status as that of children. They are seen as closer to the realm of spirits, which connotes both respect and fear (spirits and ghosts are seen as wuzho and marime, respectively). (Gropper 101) Children's status changes when they get married, which is their rite of transition into adulthood. The boy becomes a man, a Rom. The girl may go through a period of liminality, during which she becomes a lower-status member of the husband's family. It may be only after she has had several children that she will be fully accepted as a woman, a Romni. As Rom and Romni, they become responsible for the many rites of "respect avoidance" through which men and women associate. Women particularly are subject to marime because of their connection to menstruation and childbirth. As part of "respect avoidance", they must make sure not to touch their skirts against anything used for food. Passing in front of a man is questionable, and menstruating women are not allowed to clean religious articles or prepare important foods. They will also typically be isolated after childbirth for a period of several days to several weeks. The periodic marime status that women have provides them with a certain power in society. She is given respect for her ability to control her purity. This is a source of "added dignity and a heightened awareness of the mystery of her femininity". (Yoors 151) At the same time, she controls the ultimate social sanction in Gypsy society - the power to make others marime. "Tossing her skirt", an act which can mean tossing her skirt over the head of a man, makes the man permanently marime - "he's out". The act can also be expressed by tossing a shoe, exposing her genitals (again, physical contact is not necessary), or applying a pubic hair to the man's face. Her ability to pollute grants her a powerful sense of security: "There was once a fight between a young man from the Trokeshti group, who with his wife was visiting the powerful, numerous and mean Voyatesha... several of the Voyatesha banding together senselessly brutalized the outsider... having duly warned them, still without effect, the wife ripped off one of her manifold skirts and symbolically flailed them all with it. The fight stopped instantly as they realized they had become mahrime and no rom, not even their closest male relatives, would have anything to do with them until the case was brought before the kris and the burdensome onus of the mahrime lifted. Shortly after the incident... the Rom agreed to disband. They left this spot only after having overturned every bucket and pail containing river water. Kettles of food and soup were poured out, coffee was spilled... We would not be marked among the Rom by the stigma of doubt concerning our ritual cleanliness." (Yoors 151) This power is also reflected in "the belief that death, the final authority, is a man, but a woman can scare him away by cursing him and threatening to lift her skirts over him to make him marime." (Sutherland 103) Although in public men and women will often practice "respect avoidance", or "putting a face on things" by mimizing social mixing between the sexes, Sutherland comments that a husband and wife - in private - will often not observe the marime restrictions concerning the upper and lower body. The wife may walk over the man's clothes, pass in front of him, or touch him with her skirt. Both Sutherland and Miller mention the possibility that oral sex, which would normally be extremely marime, might be practiced. Miller suggests that the marime taboo might even make the act more exciting. (42) Sutherland heard from two informants that oral sex was a popular form of intercourse. However, in one case that became public knowledge, the man became marime and "'It has already cost him hundreds of dollars to try to clear himself, and it will cost him many more before he is pronounced uzho.'" (314) Gaje, because they are only concerned with what is melalo and do not follow marime laws, are by definition marime, as is everything in Gaje society. In effect, Gaje represent an extreme of one 'pattern variable' of what is marime. For this reason, any contact with Gaje is dangerous. Precautions are taken for Gaje entering Gypsy space, for example, setting aside tableware for Gaje that will be washed separately or placing an extra cloth over the Gaje's chair in a fortune teller's shop. Similarly, Gypsies limit their contact with Gaje as much as possible, mostly to gain some economic or political advantage. Ironically, though Gypsies see Gaje as marime, as outside their world, and restrict their contact with them, Gypsies will often use Gaje hospitals to shorten the isolation period after childbirth, since they are able to leave all of the marime articles in connection with the birthing process in the hospital. When births took place on the outskirts of their camp the period of avoidance might be several weeks. Hospital births shorten this time to as little as three days. The hospital is used as well for deaths; ghosts, a transitional and negative form of the individual after he has died, are firmly believed in and are also marime. (Gropper 101) The function of the hospital thus replaces that of the outskirts of the camp. The Gaje hospital is in this way an "outer" environment, providing a convenient site for these rites of transition. Marime is pervasive and takes on many more social meanings. In fact, wuzho/marime distinctions exist in the animal kingdom (predictably, dogs and cats -Gaje pets- are very marime because they lick themselves. Hedgehogs, be cause they can't, are wuzho), in the spirit world, and among the different Gypsy nations (Machwaya are wuzho, Kaldersha melalo, and Kuneshti more marime, according to Sutherland). Health and wealth are also considered outward manifestations of one's status; severe bad health or misfortune must have been caused by some marime act. Marime's role in the Gypsy system of boundary maintenance extends to issues of social rejection. In a society as insular as Gypsy society and one viewed as a Pariah group by Gaje, group identity and commensality is vital. Commensality means all in Gypsy society. To eat together at feasts and when visiting, sharing food and dishes, is an expression of trust and solidarity. A Gypsy house is open to guest at any time of day or night. In fact, individuals who seem to live apart from the gro up (for example, the few Gypsies who do not marry) are not entirely trusted. Fonseca writes: "Even at home, I was never allowed to be alone-not ever. The Dukas did not share the gadje notions of or need for privacy. Or for quiet. "The more and the noisier the better" was their creed-one that I found to be universal among Roma. Their concept of lone person was a Rom who for some infraction had been banished from the group. There was something wrong with you, some shame, if you had to be alone." (89) Rejection from the group is, in effect, a kind of social death. Although most marime judgements are not permanent, some are. These often involve a woman taking up with a Gaje. In the same way that a Gypsy might "chuck out" a marime article, the group often uses marime as a social sanction, to "chuck out" a member of the group who has polluted Gypsy society. Not just the member, but his whole family will often be subject to a marime verdict. A marime judgement defines that individual - and anyone who associates with him - as defiled, and so as a danger to the social order. This may or may not be defined officially. A Rom may find when he visits that he is offered coffee in a chipp ed cup, or not offered coffee at all (coffee seems to be especially important to Gypsies). The message - that he is not welcome, or trusted, to share in the family's tableware - is a clear rejection. Marime may start as a rumor, but this will force the marime person to address the charge publicly, often through the Gypsy court, the kris. The functioning of the kris mirrors the social commensality that is central to the issue of a person's being marime. A kris hearing is a ritual of both incorporation and separation, a social event, an occasion for much oral testi mony, and so an occasion for eating and drinking. The decision of the kris will likewise be reflected in the kris members' willingness to drink, or not drink, coffee afterwards with the defendant (the defendant may also test the kris decision by visiting members of the community for coffee). The kris offers the opportunity for the marime party to face the accusation, to clear his name, but even once the marime sanction has been lifted, the family's status may con tinue to suffer for a time. In the case of a case of "tossing the skirt", where the woman has brought marime on the man, the only satisfactory outcome, once an agreeable settlement has been reached, is for the woman to admit that the skirt tossing really never occurred. "In fact, skirt-toss marime never happens... it's a lie (because) if she really did it, he's out ... no one could eat with that family forever... generations.'" (Miller 52) In actions that echo the opportunistic use of Gaje hospitals, there have been cases of Gypsies who have used the Gaje legal system, turning in another Gypsy if he feels his wrongs are not being addressed. In general, though, marime is the one true sanction available to the Gypsy community: "The Gypsy court's decision is about 90 per cent followed. I told you about Stevan who did not, but usually the decision is abided. If I went against the Gypsy trial, I would lose my life before I would lose my name. Honour... A few of them, not very many, could be dirty. Even if I thought the decision was unjust I would go by it. You take an oath before the Gypsies." (Sutherland 304) In the light of an understanding of marime, the actions of my brother-in-law's Gypsy defendant allow for an alternative interpretation. The kris had found him guilty for being caught, likely not because he was an unsuccessful thief, but because the result of this action brought Gaje attention to the community and thus danger of marime. In addition, his flight from incarceration probably reflected not simply a desire to escape punishment, but a need to escape the real danger of being confined with Gaje in a situation where everything would be marime and there would be no way to follow marime rituals. Even after such an incarceration, he, and his family, would likely have faced an extended period of marime rejection from his community. The value of marime runs through almost every aspect of Gypsy life. It gives its meaning to rites of incorporation (births and feasts), rites of transition (hand washing and marriage) and separation (marime sanctions by the kris and serving coffee in chipped cups). In its function as boundary maintenance, marime provides a strong guide for inclusion into, or rejection from, the society. It is interesting when reading these authors to consider the areas of unanimity and divergence. It is surprising to me to find such similar beliefs and rituals throughout many countries and among the several nations of the Rom and among the non-Rom Gypsies. Then again, there were tantalizing differences in how the authors understood marime beliefs and rituals (Is melalo a neutral idea or an intermediate in the wuzho/marime continuum? Is oral intercourse taboo, or is it practiced? Are dishes that Gaje have touched smashed, or scoured and reused?). There were also times when it was difficult to gauge the effect that the ethnographer's presence had on what the Gypsies said (e.g., "You do not know our customs. We cannot expect you to understand.") or on how they understood events (interestingly, and in keeping with Gypsy beliefs that Gaje women only can be taught proper wuzho practices, all but one author - who lived with them as a boy - are women). Finally, in a society so strongly socialized to see Gaje as marime and untouchable, it raises the question: How, and to what extent, will their values persist or change to take into account social changes such as increasing urbanization and political pressures: "To be sure, more and more Gypsies are marrying Gadje (including most of the articulate Romany mationalists). Konferenca, kongreso, parlamento: these are some of the most recent additions to the romani language... Gypsy poets, ethnographers, and historians now publish work in Romani and in other languages. In Romania and in Macedonia, there are Romany television programs produced by Roma; there is a first generation of Gypsy editors of newspapers and magazines. All this is new, and the excitement is palpable. But one may also say, without disparagement, that beneath the surface things haven't changed. For the time being, survival demands that the secret society continue. Its tangled underbrush of prohibitions -the Gypsy hedge- is intact." (Fonseca 97) Works Cited Fonseca, Isabel. "Among the Gypsies" in The New Yorker. September 25, 1995 Gropper, Rena C. 1975. Gypsies in the city: culture patterns and survival. Princeton, N.J.; Darwin Press. Miller, Carol. 1975. "American Rom and the Ideology of Defilement", in Gypsies, tinkers and other travellers. Edited by Rehfisch, Farnham. London; New York; Academic Press. Okely, Judith. 1983. The traveller-Gypsies. Cambridge; New York; Cambridge University Press. Sutherland, Anne. 1987. Gypsies, The Hidden Americans. Prospect Heights, Ill.; Waveland Press. Yoors, Jan.1987. The Gypsies. Prospect Heights, Ill.; Waveland Press. Original article published at: http://www.nyu.edu/pages/hess/docs/rom1.html "... the whites keep quiet about their own bad examples - yet if any Gypsy is dirty, they point to him and say to us: «That's what you're like, you Gypsies!»" (Guy, in Rehfisch. pg.228). Few of us can claim any direct experience with Gypsies; they generally stay on the periphery of our society and our consciousness. My brother-in-law defended a Rom who had been arrested for filing two insurance claims on the same stolen car. I remember in particular that the Rom had been found guilty by the Gypsy court, the kris, not for having committed the crime, but for having been caught. I remember that my brother-in-law was fully expecting the man to skip the bail the firm had put up for him. I also remember my interpretation of the case, a seemingly logical interpretation, but one made without any understanding of marime, the central value in Gypsy society. This value defines the shape and boundaries of their natural and spiritual universe, social interaction, judicial functions, many of their rites, and their interactions with Gaje (non-Gypsies). In this paper, the work of Carol Miller and Anne Sutherland provided much of my information on marime. "The one thing I always do... I'm strict... is to wash my face and take care of my razor right. If there isn't a face towel, I use my children's T shirt. Sometimes when the soap falls out on the floor and I don't have any more, I look at it and it's hard (to refrain from picking the soap up), but like the razor falling on the floor or being used for something else (than intended ritual use), I can always tell if it's marime. I break out in a rash." (Miller 42) Marime is sometimes translated as 'ritual pollution or avoidance'. In fact both its definition and its expression are complex. It can be basically divided into issues of defilement and social rejection, both of which are called marime, and which influence each other. In terms of marime as defilement, all things are classified as either wuzho (pure) or marime (impure/defiled). The wuzho/marime opposition is expressed in several ways: the upper and lower body, the inner and outer body, inner and outer territory and, by extension, Gypsy and non Gypsy (Gaje). These distinctions pervade daily habits such as washing and eating, age and sex roles, and contact both with fellow Gypsies and with Gaje. The body is the most immediate 'map' of the distinction of wuzho/marime. The upper body, especially the mouth because of its ability to take food into the body, is wuzho. By extension, both spit and vomit are wuzho and considered to have curative powers (especially ghost vomit-the spirit world is a very real concern). The lower body, especially the genitals, is marime. Since marime status is spread from object to object through contact, all upper-body clothes are washed separately from lower body clothing, and washed in separate containers, which are reserved exclusively for those clothes. Women's clothes, because of women's periodic marime status (due to menstruation), are washed separately, as are children's clothes. An apron, interestingly, may be washed with upper body clothing because of its role in cleanliness and food preparation. Also, all cookware and tableware, since it comes into contact with food, is washed in its own container. Marime status is spread through contact, but contact is not limited to physical contact. According to Miller, actions such as yawning or looking sleepy -"because 'it means you're thinking about going to bed'"- or discussion of childbirth at the table are taboo. (Miller 42) Even a shadow might cast suspicion. Okely cites the case of a traveller at a Town Hall luncheon explaining why he stopped eating: "I could not finish my cheese. A shadow has fallen across it. It is one of our customs. You do not know our customs. We cannot expect you to understand." (Okely 80) Several authors argue that marime, and the many rituals that express marime, provide boundary maintenance: "Ideas about separating, purifying, demarcating and punishing transgressions have as their main function to impose system on inherently untidy experience, exaggerating difference between within and without, above and below, male and female, etc." (Douglas, in Miller 41) And that this is especially important in maintaining a cohesive Gypsy community in the face of Gaje persecution and attitudes toward them as pariahs. The disposal of things that are marime also reflects the inner/outer expression of boundary maintenance. Marime cannot be washed away. Things that become marime are either burned (ideally), thrown away or, if necessary, scoured with a special cleanser. Garbage is to be kept at a distance -"chucked out"- outside a camp's periphery: "Whereas Gorgio (Gaje) hygiene consists to some extent in containing, covering, or hiding dirt, for the Gypsies, polluting dirt can be visible, but it must be kept a clear distance from the clean... Gorgios accumulate and store their rubbish in bins in every room in their houses. A traveller woman stated, «People say we're dirty. They don't see the we think they're dirty. Sometimes you go to houses and maybe the outside and the gardens look all right. But you should see what's inside.»." (Okely 86-87) Another reference to the inner/outer opposition that Okely mentions is that Gypsies who are accused of illicit sex are said to have "gone behind the hedge". If fact, there is another category, melalo, which approximates Gaje notions of being dirty. A man who has gotten dirty from an activity, such as working on a car, will be melalo, someone we would say is dirty. But he will still be wuzho. What is important from the Gypsy point of view is not whether something is melalo, which is after all just dirt, but its quality, whether it is morally clean. (Anne Sutherland argues that melalo is not morally neutral but occupies a middle ground between the poles set by wuzho/marime. According to Sutherland, certain groups, for example non-Rom Gypsies (and marriages between them and Roms), Kalderasha (a middle-caste Rom nation), and certain spirits occupy this 'questionable' purity status. She further cites the belief that, while a dirty household is melalo, the spirit responsible for some Rom diseases may come and eat off of the dishes in a melalo household.) Hands, because of the jobs they perform, are transitional in status. They cater to lower-body needs, but are also required at times to be wuzho. Washing therefore becomes an especially important ritual for hands. They are washed, using separate soap and towels, anytime they may become marime: making the bed (because of its contact with the lower-body), putting on shoes, even adjusting one's belt. A Rom may even wash "his face and hands whenever he feels his luck leaving him during the day". (Miller 47) Marime distinctions also extend to age and sex roles. Children are innocent of marime. They are often forgiven for not following marime laws and rituals, because they are new, pure, don't know any better and because a parent's "love is largely expressed through being unable 'to refuse anything'". (Miller 43) Old age confers similar wuzho status as that of children. They are seen as closer to the realm of spirits, which connotes both respect and fear (spirits and ghosts are seen as wuzho and marime, respectively). (Gropper 101) Children's status changes when they get married, which is their rite of transition into adulthood. The boy becomes a man, a Rom. The girl may go through a period of liminality, during which she becomes a lower-status member of the husband's family. It may be only after she has had several children that she will be fully accepted as a woman, a Romni. As Rom and Romni, they become responsible for the many rites of "respect avoidance" through which men and women associate. Women particularly are subject to marime because of their connection to menstruation and childbirth. As part of "respect avoidance", they must make sure not to touch their skirts against anything used for food. Passing in front of a man is questionable, and menstruating women are not allowed to clean religious articles or prepare important foods. They will also typically be isolated after childbirth for a period of several days to several weeks. The periodic marime status that women have provides them with a certain power in society. She is given respect for her ability to control her purity. This is a source of "added dignity and a heightened awareness of the mystery of her femininity". (Yoors 151) At the same time, she controls the ultimate social sanction in Gypsy society - the power to make others marime. "Tossing her skirt", an act which can mean tossing her skirt over the head of a man, makes the man permanently marime - "he's out". The act can also be expressed by tossing a shoe, exposing her genitals (again, physical contact is not necessary), or applying a pubic hair to the man's face. Her ability to pollute grants her a powerful sense of security: "There was once a fight between a young man from the Trokeshti group, who with his wife was visiting the powerful, numerous and mean Voyatesha... several of the Voyatesha banding together senselessly brutalized the outsider... having duly warned them, still without effect, the wife ripped off one of her manifold skirts and symbolically flailed them all with it. The fight stopped instantly as they realized they had become mahrime and no rom, not even their closest male relatives, would have anything to do with them until the case was brought before the kris and the burdensome onus of the mahrime lifted. Shortly after the incident... the Rom agreed to disband. They left this spot only after having overturned every bucket and pail containing river water. Kettles of food and soup were poured out, coffee was spilled... We would not be marked among the Rom by the stigma of doubt concerning our ritual cleanliness." (Yoors 151) This power is also reflected in "the belief that death, the final authority, is a man, but a woman can scare him away by cursing him and threatening to lift her skirts over him to make him marime." (Sutherland 103) Although in public men and women will often practice "respect avoidance", or "putting a face on things" by mimizing social mixing between the sexes, Sutherland comments that a husband and wife - in private - will often not observe the marime restrictions concerning the upper and lower body. The wife may walk over the man's clothes, pass in front of him, or touch him with her skirt. Both Sutherland and Miller mention the possibility that oral sex, which would normally be extremely marime, might be practiced. Miller suggests that the marime taboo might even make the act more exciting. (42) Sutherland heard from two informants that oral sex was a popular form of intercourse. However, in one case that became public knowledge, the man became marime and "'It has already cost him hundreds of dollars to try to clear himself, and it will cost him many more before he is pronounced uzho.'" (314) Gaje, because they are only concerned with what is melalo and do not follow marime laws, are by definition marime, as is everything in Gaje society. In effect, Gaje represent an extreme of one 'pattern variable' of what is marime. For this reason, any contact with Gaje is dangerous. Precautions are taken for Gaje entering Gypsy space, for example, setting aside tableware for Gaje that will be washed separately or placing an extra cloth over the Gaje's chair in a fortune teller's shop. Similarly, Gypsies limit their contact with Gaje as much as possible, mostly to gain some economic or political advantage. Ironically, though Gypsies see Gaje as marime, as outside their world, and restrict their contact with them, Gypsies will often use Gaje hospitals to shorten the isolation period after childbirth, since they are able to leave all of the marime articles in connection with the birthing process in the hospital. When births took place on the outskirts of their camp the period of avoidance might be several weeks. Hospital births shorten this time to as little as three days. The hospital is used as well for deaths; ghosts, a transitional and negative form of the individual after he has died, are firmly believed in and are also marime. (Gropper 101) The function of the hospital thus replaces that of the outskirts of the camp. The Gaje hospital is in this way an "outer" environment, providing a convenient site for these rites of transition. Marime is pervasive and takes on many more social meanings. In fact, wuzho/marime distinctions exist in the animal kingdom (predictably, dogs and cats -Gaje pets- are very marime because they lick themselves. Hedgehogs, be cause they can't, are wuzho), in the spirit world, and among the different Gypsy nations (Machwaya are wuzho, Kaldersha melalo, and Kuneshti more marime, according to Sutherland). Health and wealth are also considered outward manifestations of one's status; severe bad health or misfortune must have been caused by some marime act. Marime's role in the Gypsy system of boundary maintenance extends to issues of social rejection. In a society as insular as Gypsy society and one viewed as a Pariah group by Gaje, group identity and commensality is vital. Commensality means all in Gypsy society. To eat together at feasts and when visiting, sharing food and dishes, is an expression of trust and solidarity. A Gypsy house is open to guest at any time of day or night. In fact, individuals who seem to live apart from the gro up (for example, the few Gypsies who do not marry) are not entirely trusted. Fonseca writes: "Even at home, I was never allowed to be alone-not ever. The Dukas did not share the gadje notions of or need for privacy. Or for quiet. "The more and the noisier the better" was their creed-one that I found to be universal among Roma. Their concept of lone person was a Rom who for some infraction had been banished from the group. There was something wrong with you, some shame, if you had to be alone." (89) Rejection from the group is, in effect, a kind of social death. Although most marime judgements are not permanent, some are. These often involve a woman taking up with a Gaje. In the same way that a Gypsy might "chuck out" a marime article, the group often uses marime as a social sanction, to "chuck out" a member of the group who has polluted Gypsy society. Not just the member, but his whole family will often be subject to a marime verdict. A marime judgement defines that individual - and anyone who associates with him - as defiled, and so as a danger to the social order. This may or may not be defined officially. A Rom may find when he visits that he is offered coffee in a chipp ed cup, or not offered coffee at all (coffee seems to be especially important to Gypsies). The message - that he is not welcome, or trusted, to share in the family's tableware - is a clear rejection. Marime may start as a rumor, but this will force the marime person to address the charge publicly, often through the Gypsy court, the kris. The functioning of the kris mirrors the social commensality that is central to the issue of a person's being marime. A kris hearing is a ritual of both incorporation and separation, a social event, an occasion for much oral testi mony, and so an occasion for eating and drinking. The decision of the kris will likewise be reflected in the kris members' willingness to drink, or not drink, coffee afterwards with the defendant (the defendant may also test the kris decision by visiting members of the community for coffee). The kris offers the opportunity for the marime party to face the accusation, to clear his name, but even once the marime sanction has been lifted, the family's status may con tinue to suffer for a time. In the case of a case of "tossing the skirt", where the woman has brought marime on the man, the only satisfactory outcome, once an agreeable settlement has been reached, is for the woman to admit that the skirt tossing really never occurred. "In fact, skirt-toss marime never happens... it's a lie (because) if she really did it, he's out ... no one could eat with that family forever... generations.'" (Miller 52) In actions that echo the opportunistic use of Gaje hospitals, there have been cases of Gypsies who have used the Gaje legal system, turning in another Gypsy if he feels his wrongs are not being addressed. In general, though, marime is the one true sanction available to the Gypsy community: "The Gypsy court's decision is about 90 per cent followed. I told you about Stevan who did not, but usually the decision is abided. If I went against the Gypsy trial, I would lose my life before I would lose my name. Honour... A few of them, not very many, could be dirty. Even if I thought the decision was unjust I would go by it. You take an oath before the Gypsies." (Sutherland 304) In the light of an understanding of marime, the actions of my brother-in-law's Gypsy defendant allow for an alternative interpretation. The kris had found him guilty for being caught, likely not because he was an unsuccessful thief, but because the result of this action brought Gaje attention to the community and thus danger of marime. In addition, his flight from incarceration probably reflected not simply a desire to escape punishment, but a need to escape the real danger of being confined with Gaje in a situation where everything would be marime and there would be no way to follow marime rituals. Even after such an incarceration, he, and his family, would likely have faced an extended period of marime rejection from his community. The value of marime runs through almost every aspect of Gypsy life. It gives its meaning to rites of incorporation (births and feasts), rites of transition (hand washing and marriage) and separation (marime sanctions by the kris and serving coffee in chipped cups). In its function as boundary maintenance, marime provides a strong guide for inclusion into, or rejection from, the society. It is interesting when reading these authors to consider the areas of unanimity and divergence. It is surprising to me to find such similar beliefs and rituals throughout many countries and among the several nations of the Rom and among the non-Rom Gypsies. Then again, there were tantalizing differences in how the authors understood marime beliefs and rituals (Is melalo a neutral idea or an intermediate in the wuzho/marime continuum? Is oral intercourse taboo, or is it practiced? Are dishes that Gaje have touched smashed, or scoured and reused?). There were also times when it was difficult to gauge the effect that the ethnographer's presence had on what the Gypsies said (e.g., "You do not know our customs. We cannot expect you to understand.") or on how they understood events (interestingly, and in keeping with Gypsy beliefs that Gaje women only can be taught proper wuzho practices, all but one author - who lived with them as a boy - are women). Finally, in a society so strongly socialized to see Gaje as marime and untouchable, it raises the question: How, and to what extent, will their values persist or change to take into account social changes such as increasing urbanization and political pressures: "To be sure, more and more Gypsies are marrying Gadje (including most of the articulate Romany mationalists). Konferenca, kongreso, parlamento: these are some of the most recent additions to the romani language... Gypsy poets, ethnographers, and historians now publish work in Romani and in other languages. In Romania and in Macedonia, there are Romany television programs produced by Roma; there is a first generation of Gypsy editors of newspapers and magazines. All this is new, and the excitement is palpable. But one may also say, without disparagement, that beneath the surface things haven't changed. For the time being, survival demands that the secret society continue. Its tangled underbrush of prohibitions -the Gypsy hedge- is intact." (Fonseca 97) Works Cited Fonseca, Isabel. "Among the Gypsies" in The New Yorker. September 25, 1995 Gropper, Rena C. 1975. Gypsies in the city: culture patterns and survival. Princeton, N.J.; Darwin Press. Miller, Carol. 1975. "American Rom and the Ideology of Defilement", in Gypsies, tinkers and other travellers. Edited by Rehfisch, Farnham. London; New York; Academic Press. Okely, Judith. 1983. The traveller-Gypsies. Cambridge; New York; Cambridge University Press. Sutherland, Anne. 1987. Gypsies, The Hidden Americans. Prospect Heights, Ill.; Waveland Press. Yoors, Jan.1987. The Gypsies. Prospect Heights, Ill.; Waveland Press. Indierna självä kallar Romerna för ASSHURA det vill säga ASSYRIANER.Romer har inte en enda hinduisk element eller någåt som liknar det. däremot går hela romska kultur tillbaka Bibelns tider. Däremot vill jag säga att man har av rent slump hittat Genetisk samband till gamala Judiska prästskapen.Här har man igen inte velat testa närmare . "Nearly 86% of Y chromosomes belong to haplogroup VI-68, and a single lineage within that haplogroup, found across Romani populations, accounts for almost all of Romani males. A similar preservation of a highly resolved male lineage has been reported elsewhere only for Jewish priests (Thomas et al. 2003"" Romska folket har uppfyllt var enda profet om Ephraim.Guds ord väger tyngre än allt annat. NEJ Romernas språk finns inte i Indien men vissa ord liknar sanskriten.Men Romerna har tusentals Persiska ord i sitt språk.Att Romerna har varit i Indien gör dom sig inte Indier.Men bibel experter vet när Ephraim var i slavar i Assyriska riket i dom tre städer längst Öst om Riket .Därifrän är det bara 900km Till den Indiska dalen.Att Ephraim måste ha vandrat till Indien.Dett håller rabbierna och Bibel experter.Indierna självä kallar Romerna för ASSHURA det vill säga ASSYRIANER.Romer har inte en enda hinduisk element eller någåt som liknar det. däremot går hela romska kultur tillbaka Bibelns tider. hoosea .9 17: My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations NEJ Romernas språk finns inte i Indien men vissa ord liknar sanskriten.Men Romerna har tusentals Persiska ord i sitt språk.Att Romerna har varit i Indien gör dom sig inte Indier.Men bibel experter vet när Ephraim var i slavar i Assyriska riket i dom tre städer längst Öst om Riket .Därifrän är det bara 900km Till den Indiska dalen.Att Ephraim måste ha vandrat till Indien.Dett håller rabbierna och Bibel experter.Indierna självä kallar Romerna för ASSHURA det vill säga ASSYRIANER.Romer har inte en enda hinduisk element eller någåt som liknar det. däremot går hela romska kultur tillbaka Bibelns tider. Däremot vill jag säga att man har av rent slump hittat Genetisk samband till gamala Judiska prästskapen.Här har man igen inte velat testa närmare . "Nearly 86% of Y chromosomes belong to haplogroup VI-68, and a single lineage within that haplogroup, found across Romani populations, accounts for almost all of Romani males. A similar preservation of a highly resolved male lineage has been reported elsewhere only for Jewish priests (Thomas et al. 2003"" 9:17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations. 17. Minun Jumalani on heittävä heidät pois, ettei he häntä kuulleet; ja heidän pitää pakanain seassa kulkiana vaeltaman Hes. 37:16 "Sinä, ihmislapsi, ota puusauva ja kirjoita siihen: 'Juudalle ja häneen liittyneille israelilaisille.' Ota sitten toinen puusauva ja kirjoita siihen: 'Joosefille; Efraimin ja kaiken häneen liittyneen Israelin heimon sauva.' Romska folket har uppfyllt var enda profet om Ephraim.Guds ord väger tyngre än allt annat. NEJ Romernas språk finns inte i Indien men vissa ord liknar sanskriten.Men Romerna har tusentals Persiska ord i sitt språk.Att Romerna har varit i Indien gör dom sig inte Indier.Men bibel experter vet när Ephraim var i slavar i Assyriska riket i dom tre städer längst Öst om Riket .Därifrän är det bara 900km Till den Indiska dalen.Att Ephraim måste ha vandrat till Indien.Dett håller rabbierna och Bibel experter.Indierna självä kallar Romerna för ASSHURA det vill säga ASSYRIANER.Romer har inte en enda hinduisk element eller någåt som liknar det. däremot går hela romska kultur tillbaka Bibelns tider. Däremot vill jag säga att man har av rent slump hittat Genetisk samband till gamala Judiska prästskapen.Här har man igen inte velat testa närmare . "Nearly 86% of Y chromosomes belong to haplogroup VI-68, and a single lineage within that haplogroup, found across Romani populations, accounts for almost all of Romani males. A similar preservation of a highly resolved male lineage has been reported elsewhere only for Jewish priests (Thomas et al. 2003"" 9:17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations. 17. Minun Jumalani on heittävä heidät pois, ettei he häntä kuulleet; ja heidän pitää pakanain seassa kulkiana vaeltaman. KAPPALEET ESTERIN KIRJASTA Tässä seuraa muutamat kappaleet, jokta tulevat Esterin kirjaan ja Danielin prophetiaan, jotka sieltä ovat eroitetut ja jätetyt pois, ettei niitä löydy Hebrean Bibliassa, ja tähän jälleen pannut, ettei ne hukkuisi; sillä näissä on myös jotakin hyvää seassa, erinomattain kiitosvirsi; Benedicite Artakserkseen lähetyskirja Juudalaisten surmaamisesta. Mutta kirja oli näin: Suuri kuningas Artakserkses Indiasta Etiopiaan asti tervehtii sataa ja seitsemääkolmattakymmentä päämiestä, ynnä alamaisten kanssa! 2. Vaikka minä voimallinen kuningas olen ja suurin herra maan päällä, niin en minä ole kuitenkaan voimastani tahtonut ylpiäksi tulla, vaan ahkeroinut armollisesti ja siviästi hallita, ja rauhan, josta jokainen iloitsee, voimassansa pitää, että jokainen rauhallisesti eläis ja asiansa toimittais. 3. Pidin sentähden päämiesteni kanssa neuvoa, kuinka se parhain tapahtuis. Niin ilmoitti minulle Haman, toimellisin, rakkain ja uskollisin neuvonantajani, joka kuninkaan jälkeen on ylimmäinen: Est. 3: 1. 4. Kuinka yksi kansa on, joka kaikkiin maakuntiin hajoitetun on, joilla erinomainen laki on vastoin kaikkein maakuntain ja kansain tapaa, ja katsoo joka paikassa kuninkaan käskyn ylön, jonka kautta he rauhan ja yksimielisyyden valtakunnassa estävät. 5. Koska me siis ymmärsimme, että yksi ainoa kansa koko maailmaa vastaan itsensä asettaa, ja oman tapansa pitää, ja ne meidän käskyillemme ovat tottelemattomat, jonka kautta he suuren vahingon tekevät, ja rauhan ja yksimielisyyden valtakunnassamme turmelevat; 6. Käskimme me, että kaikki ne, jotka Haman, ylimmäinen päämies ja ylimmäinen kuninkaan jälkeen, meidän isämme, tietää antava on, pitää vihollistensa miekoilla vaimoinensa ja lapsinensa, ilman yhtäkään armoa surmattaman, eikä ketään armahdettaman. 7. Ja neljäntenätoistakymmenentenä päivänä Adarista, toisesta kuukaudesta toistakymmentä, tänä vuotena, pitää kaikki ne tottelemattomat yhtenä päivänä tapettaman, että vahva rauha pysyis valtakunnassamme. Tämä kappale luettakaan neljännen luvun jälkeen, ennen kuin viides aljetaan: Mardokain rukous Jumalan tykö Juudalaisten säästämisestä. 8. Ja Mardokai rukoili Herraa, ja luetteli hänen ihmeellisiä töitänsä ja sanoi: Herra Jumala, sinä olet kaikkivaltias kuningas! 9. Kaikki ovat sinun hallussas, ja ei sinun tahtoas vastaan voi kenkään olla, kuin sinä Israelia auttaa tahdot. 10. Sinä olet taivaan ja maan tehnyt, ja kaikki, mitä niissä on. Neh. 9: 6. 11. Sinä olet kaikkein Herra, ja ei kenkään voi olla sinua vastaan. 12. Sinä tiedät kaikki: sinä olet nähnyt, etten minä ylpeydestä eli ylönkatseesta ylpiää Hamania ole palvella tahtonut; 13. Sillä minä olisin valmis lsraelin hyväksi mielelläni hänen jalkainsakin suuta antamaan; 14. Vaan olen tehnyt pelvosta, etten minä sitä kunniaa, joka minun Jumalalleni tulee, antaisi ihmisille, enkä ketään muuta kumartaisi kuin minun Jumalaani. 15. Ja nyt Herra, sinä Kuningas ja Abrahamin Jumala, armahda sinun kansas päälle! sillä meidän vihollisemme tahtovat meitä hävittää, ja sinun perikuntas, joka sinun alusta on ollut, hukuttaa. 1 Mos. 17: 19. 16. Älä katso ylön sinun joukkoas, jonkas Egyptistä pelastanut olet. 17. Kuule minun rukoukseni, ja ole kansalles armollinen, ja käännä meidän murheemme iloksi, että me eläisimme ja sinun nimeäs ylistäisimme, ja älä anna niiden suuta tukittaa, jotka sinua kiittävät. 18. Ja koko Israel huusi kaikesta voimastansa Herran tykö; sillä he olivat kuoleman hädässä. Esterin rukous kansansa pelastuksesta. Ja kuningatar Ester käänsi myös itsensä Herran tykö senkaltaisessa kuoleman hädässä, Est. 3: 13. 2. Ja riisui kuninkaalliset vaatteet, ja puki itsensä murhevaatteisiin, ja kalliin veden ja balsamin edestä hajoitti hän tuhkaa ja tomua päänsä päälle, ja nöyryytti ruumiinsa paastolla. 3. Ja joka paikassa, kussa hän ennen iloinen oli ollut, repi hän hiuksiansa, ja rukoili Israelin Jumalaa ja sanoi: 4. Herra, joka meidän ainoa Kuninkaamme olet, auta minua viheliäistä, ei minulla ole muuta auttajaa kuin sinä yksinäs, ja hätä on käsissä. 5. Minä olen minun isältäni kuullut, Herra, ettäs Israelin kaikista pakanoista eroittanut, ja meidän isämme vanhasta ijankaikkiseksi perinnöksi omistanut olet, ja pitänyt, mitäs heille puhunutkin olet. 5 Mos. 4: 10. 6: 21. 7: 7. 6. Me olemme sinun edessäs syntiä tehneet; sentähden olet sinä meitä antanut meidän vihollistemme käsiin. 7. Herra, sinä olet vanhurskas; sillä me olemme heidän jumaliansa palvelleet. 8. Mutta ei he nyt siihen tyydy, että he suuresti meitä vaivaavat; 9. Vaan voittonsa he lukevat jumalainsa voimaksi, ja tahtovat sinun lupaukses tyhjäksi tehdä, ja sinun perintös hävittää, ja niiden suut, jotka sinua kiittävät, tukkia, ja sinun templis ja alttaris kunnian hävittää, 10. Ja pakanain suut avata ylistämään jumaliansa, Ja kuolevaista kuningasta ijankaikkisesti ylistämään. 11. Herra, älä anna valtikkaas niille, jotka ei mitään ole, ettei he meidän vaivaisuuttamme nauraisi, vaan käännä heidän aivoituksensa itse päällensä, ja muista sitä, joka sen meitä vastaan matkaan saattaa. 12. Muista meitä, Herra, ja ilmoita itses meidän tuskassamme, ja vahvista minua, Herra, sinä kaikkein jumalain ja sotajoukkoin Jumala. Dan. 2: 47. 1 Tim. 6: 15. 13. Opeta minua, kuinka minun jalopeuran edessä pitää puhuman, ja käännä hänen sydämensä, että hän meidän vihollistamme rupeais vihaamaan, niin että hän itse joukkoinensa hukkuis. 14. Ja holhoo meitä kädelläs, ja auta minua, sinun piikaas, jolla ei muuta apua ole kuin sinä, Herra, ainoasti, 15. Sinä, joka kaikki asiat tiedät ja tunnet, ettei minulla ole iloa siitä kunniasta, joka minulla jumalattomain tykönä olla taitaa, eikä mielisuosiota pakanalliseen ja muukalaiseen naimiseen. 16. Sinä tiedät, että minun se tehdä täytyi, ja en lue miksikään sitä kunniallista kaunistusta, jota minä pääni päällä kannan, kuin minun koreileman pitää, vaan pidän sen niinkuin saastaisen rääpäleen, ja en sitä kanna muulloin, vaan silloin kuin minun koreileman pitää. 17. Ja en minä ole koskaan Hamanin kanssa syönyt, enkä iloissani ollut kuninkaan pöydällä, en myös ole juonut uhrien viinasta. 18. Ja sinun piikas ei ole koskaan iloissansa ollut, sittenkuin ; minä tänne tulin tähänasti, vaan ainoasti sinussa, Herra, Abrahamin Jumala. 19. Kuule hyljättyin ääni, sinä väkevä Jumala ylitse kaikkein, ja pelasta meitä jumalattoman käsistä, ja vapahda minua minun tuskistani! Tämä olkoon viidennen luvun alun selitys: Ester löytää armon kuninkaan edessä. 4. Ja kolmantena päivänä riisui hän jokapäiväiset vaatteensa, ja puki itsensä kuninkaalliseen kaunistukseen, Est, 4: 16. 5: 1. 5. Ja oli sangen ihana, ja huusi Jumalan ja Vapahtajan tykö, joka kaikki näkee. 6. Ja otti myötänsä kaksi piikaa ja nojasi itse toisen päälle hiljaksensa. 7. Mutta toinen seurasi häntä ja kantoi hänen hameensa lievettä. 8. Ja hänen kasvonsa olivat sangen kauniit, ihanat ja ilon muotoiset, vaan hänen sydämensä oli täynnä ahdistusta ja murhetta. 9. Ja kuin hän kaikista ovista sisälle tuli, meni hän kuninkaan kohdalle, kussa hän istui kuninkaallisella istuimellansa, kuninkaallisissa vaatteissansa, jotka kullasta ja kalliista kivistä olivat, ja oli sangen peljättävä nähdä. 10. Kuin hän nyt silmänsä nosti ja katsoi vihaisesti hänen päällensä, niin kuningatar pyörtyi*, ja raukesi voimattomuudesta, ja laski päänsä piian päälle. * Est. 5: 2. 11. Niin Jumala käänsi kuninkaan sydämen hyvyyteen, ja hän hämmästyi hänen tähtensä, hyppäsi istuimeltansa ja sai hänen syliinsä, siihen asti että hän tointui, ja sanoi ystävällisesti hänelle: 12. Mikä sinun on, Ester? 13. Minä olen sinun veljes, älä pelkää; ei sinun pidä kuoleman; sillä ei se käsky tule sinuun, vaan kaikkiin muihin; tule edes. 14. Ja hän ojensi kultaisen valtikan, ja laski hänen olallensa, ja antoi hänen suuta, ja sanoi: sano, mitäs tahdot? 15. Ja hän vastasi: kuin minä katsoin sinun päälles, luulin minä näkeväni Jumalan enkelin*; sentähden minä hämmästyin sinun suuren majesteettis tähden. * 2 Sam. 19:27. 16. Sillä sinä olet sangen peljättävä, ja sinun muotos on suurta kunniaa täynnä. 17. Ja kuin hän niin parhaallansa puhui, pyörtyi hän taas voimattomuudesta, ja lankesi maahan. 18. Mutta kuningas hämmästyi palvelioinensa, ja lohduttivat häntä. Tämä kappale luettakoon kahdeksannen luvun jälkeen, yhdeksännen edellä: Artakserkseen lähetyskirja Juudalaisten säästämisestä. Neljäntenä kuningas Ptolomeuksen ja Kleopatran vuotena toivat Dositeus (joka itsensä sanoi papiksi Levin suvusta) ja Ptolomeus, hänen poikansa, tämän kirjan Purimista* ja sanoivat, että Lysimakus, Ptolomeuksen poika, oli sen kääntänyt Jerusalemissa: * Est. 9: 20, 32. 1. Artakserkses, suuri kuningas Indiasta Etiopiaan asti, tervehtii niitä sataa seitsemääkolmattakymmentä päämiestä, ynnä alamaisten kanssa! 2. Me ymmärrämme, että moni on päämiesten ystävyydestä ja kunniasta, joka heille tapahtuu, ylpiäksi ja ilkiäksi tullut, 3. Niin ettei he ainoastaan sorra alamaisia, vaan aikovat myös itse herrat, joilta he ylennetyt ovat, jalkainsa alle polkea, 4. Ja ei tee ainoasti luonnollista kohtuullisuutta vastaan, kiittämättömyyden kautta; vaan ovat ylpeydellä soaistut, niin ettei he luule Jumalan (joka hurskaita holhoo) senkaltaista petosta rankaisevan. 5. He pettävät myös hyvät ruhtinaat, viatointa verta vuodattaissansa, 6. Ja ne, jotka heitä uskollisesti ja toimellisesti palvelevat, saattavat he kaikkinaiseen onnettomuuteen. 7. Joka löydetään ei ainoasti vanhoista historioista, mutta myös vielä joka päivä nähdään, kuinka paljon senkaltaiset neuvonantajat pahuutta matkaan saattavat. 8. Että meidän siis pitää ottaman vaarin, että rauha tästedes pysyis valtakunnassa, 9. Täytyy meidän, asian tilan jälkeen, toisinansa käs Romaneilla on säilynyt oma identiteettinsä ja kielensäkin vuosisatojen jopa tuhansien ajan. Kulttuurissa on elementtejä syvästä uskonnollisuudesta ja erityinen vanhimpien kunnioittamisen perinne. Mistä romanit ovat oikein lähtöisin alunperin? Itse en ihmettelisi vaikka heillä olisi Jokin yhteys Israelin kadonneisiin sukukuntiin. Kerrotaan, että romanit tulee Intiasta, mutta mistä ne sinne t
kun tämänpituisen viestin tänne tyrkkäsit - seriffi vois kättelyssä poistaa heti näin pitkät viestit
pienokaisen suuhuun?
hörhö ja valehtelija? Asialliseen keskusteluun ei täällä millään pääse, Israelin historian siis jätän mutta kävisikö tämä, geenit eivät valehtele, eikä niitä voi nimittää hörhöiksikään. http://www.orientalthane.com/sociology/news_jan_5.htm http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(07)61261-0 Gypsies belong predominantly (about 50%) to haplogroup H1a. Haplogroup H is not otherwise found in Europe, but on the Indian subcontinent. The comparisons (Figure 2, Table 1) provide a general indication that most of the Roma are genetically closer to Indians than to European populations, hardly surprising in view of the linguistic theories on the Indian origins of the Roma proposed two centuries ago [1]. More importantly, the analysis highlights the internal diversity of the Roma, who appear to be genetically far more heterogeneous than autochthonous European populations.
aika moista.. mutta. jos jehovalaisuudesta ja niiden historian näkemyksestä jostakin vartiotornista jotakin samantapaisesta löytyy tutkimusta, ei sitä pidä omia itseänsä neroksi , sentään uskoen!
Dont talk shit about total.