Jos ajattelemme islaminuskon ja kristinuskon pohjalta, niin kysymys kuuluu:
Onko Jumala kaiken luoja?
Kysymys
50
957
Vastaukset
- Jake.Waits
jos vastaa "kyllä", täytyy olla niin, että Jumala on luonut myös pahuuden?
=> Jos Jumala ei sallinut WTC-iskuja, niin kuinka ne sitten tapahtuivat, niinkö?- bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits, tiedätkö mitä on pahuus?
- Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
Jake.Waits, tiedätkö mitä on pahuus?
Miksi Jumala ei säädä _kaikkea_ tarkalleen etukäteen?
Lue tämä FBI:n manuaalista poimittu raportti sadististen sarjamurhaajien teoista ja mieti, voisiko Jumala sallia ja vielä _suunnitella_ tällaista tapahtuvan (kenties sinun tyttärellesi)?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Background
During the last year of his incarceration at California Men's Colony at San Luis Obispo, Roy Lewis Norris met Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker. Both inmates had an extensive criminal history that involved a substantial amount of violent activity. As the relationship developed, the two discovered a topic of mutual interest: dominating, torturing and raping women. They also shared the attitude that with any future sexual assaults on women, they would leave no witnesses.
Bittaker was released in November 1978 and Norris in January 1979. After their reunion, the duo decided to perpetrate their prison ambitions. The first thing they needed was the proper vehicle to ensure uncomplicated abductions. Bittaker found a 1977 silver General Motors cargo van with a sliding door and no windows on the side, perfect for grabbing their victims with minimal fuss. Bittaker and Norris felt well prepared after spending the first half of 1979 outfitting the van with a twin-size mattress supported by wood and plywood, tool, clothes, and a cooler. They also had carefully selected a remote area in the San Gabriel Mountains above the city of Glendora, California. They found a gated fire road that Bittaker secured with his own lock, added insurance that they would be left undisturbed. In addition, they had picked up more than twenty hitchhikers, not attacking any of them, but simply rehearsing for the right day.
The right day came on 24 June 1979 and at least four other times between June and 31 October 1979. During that time period, Bittaker and Norris were responsible for at least five murders.
Victimology
Lucinda Schaeffer, age sixteen, lived with her grandmother in Torrance, California. She was an attractive teenager who was active in her church, including the senior-high fellowship group. On 24 June 1979 she attended a fellowship meeting at St. Andrew's Presbyterian church in Redondo Beach. She decided to leave early and walked home along the Pacific coast highway instead of calling her grandmother for a ride.
Bittaker spotted her. The van pulled alongside her, and Norris asked her if she wanted to go for a ride and smoke some marijuana. She refused and kept on walking, with Norris and Bittaker following at a distance. When they reached a residential area with little traffic, the two men made their move. Bittaker pulled up ahead of her, stopping the van in front of a driveway while Norris waited on the sidewalk as Schaeffer approached.
When she reached him, she exchanged a few words with him. Norris then grabbed her and dragged her to the van, threw her inside, and slammed the door. The van squealed away, and Bittaker turned the radio up to mask Cindy Schaeffer's screams. Norris taped her mouth and bound her hands and feet as they drove to the fire road.
Once they arrived, Bittaker and Norris smoked some marijuana while asking Schaeffer questions about her family and boyfriend in Wisconsin. After they became bored with that, Bittaker took a walk while Norris raped her and forced her to perform fellatio. When Bittaker returned, he continued the sexual assault until Norris came back for more.
After they were done, Norris attempted to strangle Schaeffer but lost his nerve when he saw the anguished look in her eyes. Bittaker took over until Schaeffer collapsed on the ground convulsing and attempting to breathe. Bittaker remarked that it took more to strangle someone than shown on TV; the two men then tightened a coat hanger around her neck with a pair of vise-grip pliers until she was finally still. They wrapped her body with a blue shower curtain so the blood from the hanger cutting into her neck would not get on the van's carpet and dumped her body over the side of a deep canyon.
On 8 July Bittaker and Norris again were stalking victims on the Pacific Coast Highway when they spotted Andrea Joy Hall, age eighteen, hitchhiking. The first attempt to pick her up was unsuccessful because she got into a white convertible, but thinking she would get out sooner of later, they followed her. Around the noon, she was let out of the convertible and then picked up by Bittaker while Norris hid under the bed. At Bittaker's urging, Hall obtained a drink from the cooler in the back of the van, at which point Norris made his move to subdue her. Hall's assault followed much like Schaeffer's, with the exception that she was photographed, providing souvenirs for her killers to recall the look of terror on her face. At this point, Bittaker and Norris were becoming comfortable enough with their crime to experiment with torturing their victims, verbally and physically. Hall had an ice pick jabbed into her brain, first through one ear, then the other. She was then strangled and thrown over the cliff.
The next two victims were Jackie Doris Gilliam, age fifteen and Jacqueline Leah Lamp, age thirteen. The girls had been walking and hitchhiking casually along the road and had stopped for a rest at a buss-stop bench when the van pulled up beside them. They entered the van voluntarily, but became uneasy when it turned away from the beach and headed for the mountains. As lamp attempted to open the van door, Norris struck her over the head with a bat. Bittaker stopped to help Norris subdue the two girls and then headed to San Dimas, California.
Gilliam and Lamp were held for nearly forty-eight hours before they were murdered. Both were tortured, and Norris took approximately twenty-four Polaroid photographs of Gilliam and Bittaker engaged in various sexual acts. She was then stabbed through the ear with an ice pick, manually strangled, and finally struck on the head with a sledgehammer. Norris claims that Lamp was not sexually assaulted. Before he savagely battered her head with a sledgehammer, Bittaker remarked, "You wanted to stay a virgin, now you can die a virgin.". With this torture session, as well with the next one, Bittaker and Norris decided to further preserve their exploits by using a tape recorder.
Shirley Lynette Ledford was last seen hitchhiking on 31 October 1979 around 10:45 P.M. in Sun Valley, California. After Bittaker and Norris picked her up hitchhiking, they enacted the assault differently. Instead of heading for their spot in the mountains, they opted drive around the streets near San Fernando Valley as they tortured Ledford. She was struck on the elbows repeatedly with a 3-pound sledgehammer. Bittaker decided Ledford was not screaming enough to suit him, so he retrieved a pair of pliers and vice-grips from his toolbox and pinched her nipples and vagina with them. Ledford was also raped and sodomized. Her torment finally ended with a coat hanger tightened by the vice-grips around her neck.
Her nude body was dumped on the front lawn of a Sunland residence so the offenders could enjoy the reaction of the news media.
All the victims were targeted because they manifested some common characteristics that suited the preference of Bittaker and Norris. They all were white females, within a narrow age range, unknowns to the offenders and considered high-risk victims because they were hitchhiking or walking along the highway.
Crime Scene Indicators
The crime scenes of Bittaker and Norris typified organized sadistic murder: they were carefully planned offences that reflected overall control in conversation and of the victims themselves by the use of restraints. Bittaker derived enjoyment from engaging victims in conversation governed by him. He used the conversation as a means of torture in itself; making victims plead for their lives substantiated his sense of domination.
Their abductions were well planned, beginning with the customizing the offenders did on the van. The weapons, the tool of their assault, were never an issue until capture because the actual crime scene was within the van. At the abduction sites, the only evidence left behind was Schaeffer's shoe.
Bittaker and Norris transported the victims to remote sites that posed to no risk of interruption or discovery. This ensured the lengthy contact with the victims that was required to fulfill the fantasies and drives that fueled their acts of sadistic murder. Several bodies were transported to a different disposal site from the death scene. With Norris' help, investigators found the broken skeletal remains of Gilliam and Lamp scattered over an area hundreds of feet along the canyon floor. No trace of Schaeffer's or Hall's body was found due to the well-selected disposal sites.
The setting of Ledford's death and assault was still within the realm of the organized, controlled scene, despite the body being left in view with no effort to conceal it. Bittaker's craving for some recognition of his crime was his incentive for this change in MO. There was no staging involved with these homicides.
Forensic Finding
As described before, Lucinda Schaeffer's and Andrea Hall's remains were never found. Partial remains of Gilliam and Lamp, including their battered skulls, were found in the Glendora Mountains. Gilliam still had the ice pick inserted in her right ear.
Shirley Ledford's autopsy revealed death was due to strangulation with a wire ligature around her neck. There was a linear compression mark and soft tissue and petechial hemorrhage around her neck. There was evidence of multiple blunt-force trauma to the face, head and breasts. Her rectum, the lining inside her rectum, and her vagina had been torn, in part due to the insertion of a pair of pliers by Bittaker. There were bruises on her left elbow, a cut to the right index finger, and a puncture wound to the left hand. The wrists and ankles had ligature marks as well.
Investigation
Bittaker and Norris engaged in other crimes during this time period in addition to the sadistic murders. There were at least three separate incidents: an attempted rape, a rape kidnapping, and an assault with mace. Photos were found after Bittaker and Norris' arrests that were indicative of another victim, an unknown white female, who remains unidentified. One of the victims who was raped and released identified Bittaker and Norris as her assailants. Norris and Bittaker were arrested for charges other than the murder charges in the hope that one or both would fold under interrogation and confess. Norris eventually did, shifting the blame to Bittaker in an attempt to save himself. The motive for the brutal murders is perhaps best explained by Dr. Ronald Markman, a forensic psychiatrist who examined the offenders. He describes them as being sociopaths who know right from wrong but simply do not care. "They lack the internal prohibitions, or conscience, that keep most of us from giving full expression to our most primitive, and sometimes violent, impulses" (Markman, 1989,268). Dr. Markman stated that by their union Bittaker and Norris helped each other "fulfill their most savage, primitive potential as sociopaths" (Markman, 1989,268).
Outcome
Roy Norris pleaded guilty to four counts of first-decree murder, one count of second-degree murder, two counts of rape, and one count of robbery. He is scheduled to serve a minimum of thirty years. Lawrence Bittaker was found guilty of twenty-six counts of murder, rape, kidnapping, and torture on 17 February 1981. It took forty minutes just for the court clerk to read the verdicts. Bittaker received the death penalty.
-FBI Crime Classification Manual, CASE STUDY: SADISTIC MURDER (134)
[note: John Douglas prepared actor Scott Glenn for the role of Jack Crawford in The Silence of The Lambs by playing portions of audio tapes recorded by Bittaker and Norris during their killings.]
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Crime Classification Manual : A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crimes
by John E. Douglas
134. Sadistic murder
A sexual sadist is someone who has established "an enduring pattern of sexual arousal in response to sadistic imagery" (Dietz, Hazelwood & Warren, 1990, 165). Sexual gratification is obtained from torture involving excessive mental and physical means. The offender derives the greatest satisfaction from the victim's response to torture. Sexually sadistic fantasies in which sexual acts are pained with domination, degradation, and violence are translated into criminal action that results in death.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Voices of death
Word-to-word statements from convicted killers
Michael Newton's SERIAL SLAUGHTER: WHAT'S BEHIND AMERICA'S MURDER EPIDEMIC?
"It doesn't bother me in the least. There are a hell of a lot worse things that can happen than to die in the gas chamber."
- Douglas Clark
"I kept hearing her talking to me and telling me to do things. And I couldn't do it. I had one voice that was trying to made me commit a suicide, and I wouldn't do it. I had another one telling me to do anything they told me to do. That's what got me in the hospital, was not doing what they told me to do."
- Henry Lee Lucas
"Every man has his passion. Some prefer whist. I prefer killing people."
- Rudolf Pleil
"If I gave a shit about the parents, I wouldn't have killed the kid."
- Clifford Olson
"He was a kid. It was all there in front of him, his whole life, sex, fun, all of it. Why should he have it when I never did? I took it all away from him. Besides, I never killed a kid before. I wanted to see how it felt."
- Stephen Nash
"I figure, well, if I ever get a change to kill somebody, I'll just kill them, even if it was just an old man."
- Joseph Danks
"I don't know why I do it. I get headaches, pass out and hear funny noises"
- Anthony Spencer
"In my lifetime I have murdered twenty-one human beings, I have committed thousands of burglaries, robberies, larcenies, arsons and last but not least I have committed sodomy on more than 1000 male human beings. For all these things I am not in the least bit sorry."
- Carl Panzram
"Hurry it up, you bastard. I could hang a dozen men while you're fooling around."
- Carl Panzram, to his executioner
"Even though this court may pronounce me guilty a thousand times, the higher court of our great Aryan warrior god pronounces me innocent. Heil Hitler!"
- Frank Spisak
"I want the chair. That's what I've always wanted. My lawyer told me there are a hundred men waiting to die in the chair. I'm asking the judge if I can have the first man's sweating. I'm ready for it."
- Mark Edwards
"You had better put me to death, because next time it might be one of you or your daughter."
- Steven Judy
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
Miksi Jumala ei säädä _kaikkea_ tarkalleen etukäteen?
Lue tämä FBI:n manuaalista poimittu raportti sadististen sarjamurhaajien teoista ja mieti, voisiko Jumala sallia ja vielä _suunnitella_ tällaista tapahtuvan (kenties sinun tyttärellesi)?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Background
During the last year of his incarceration at California Men's Colony at San Luis Obispo, Roy Lewis Norris met Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker. Both inmates had an extensive criminal history that involved a substantial amount of violent activity. As the relationship developed, the two discovered a topic of mutual interest: dominating, torturing and raping women. They also shared the attitude that with any future sexual assaults on women, they would leave no witnesses.
Bittaker was released in November 1978 and Norris in January 1979. After their reunion, the duo decided to perpetrate their prison ambitions. The first thing they needed was the proper vehicle to ensure uncomplicated abductions. Bittaker found a 1977 silver General Motors cargo van with a sliding door and no windows on the side, perfect for grabbing their victims with minimal fuss. Bittaker and Norris felt well prepared after spending the first half of 1979 outfitting the van with a twin-size mattress supported by wood and plywood, tool, clothes, and a cooler. They also had carefully selected a remote area in the San Gabriel Mountains above the city of Glendora, California. They found a gated fire road that Bittaker secured with his own lock, added insurance that they would be left undisturbed. In addition, they had picked up more than twenty hitchhikers, not attacking any of them, but simply rehearsing for the right day.
The right day came on 24 June 1979 and at least four other times between June and 31 October 1979. During that time period, Bittaker and Norris were responsible for at least five murders.
Victimology
Lucinda Schaeffer, age sixteen, lived with her grandmother in Torrance, California. She was an attractive teenager who was active in her church, including the senior-high fellowship group. On 24 June 1979 she attended a fellowship meeting at St. Andrew's Presbyterian church in Redondo Beach. She decided to leave early and walked home along the Pacific coast highway instead of calling her grandmother for a ride.
Bittaker spotted her. The van pulled alongside her, and Norris asked her if she wanted to go for a ride and smoke some marijuana. She refused and kept on walking, with Norris and Bittaker following at a distance. When they reached a residential area with little traffic, the two men made their move. Bittaker pulled up ahead of her, stopping the van in front of a driveway while Norris waited on the sidewalk as Schaeffer approached.
When she reached him, she exchanged a few words with him. Norris then grabbed her and dragged her to the van, threw her inside, and slammed the door. The van squealed away, and Bittaker turned the radio up to mask Cindy Schaeffer's screams. Norris taped her mouth and bound her hands and feet as they drove to the fire road.
Once they arrived, Bittaker and Norris smoked some marijuana while asking Schaeffer questions about her family and boyfriend in Wisconsin. After they became bored with that, Bittaker took a walk while Norris raped her and forced her to perform fellatio. When Bittaker returned, he continued the sexual assault until Norris came back for more.
After they were done, Norris attempted to strangle Schaeffer but lost his nerve when he saw the anguished look in her eyes. Bittaker took over until Schaeffer collapsed on the ground convulsing and attempting to breathe. Bittaker remarked that it took more to strangle someone than shown on TV; the two men then tightened a coat hanger around her neck with a pair of vise-grip pliers until she was finally still. They wrapped her body with a blue shower curtain so the blood from the hanger cutting into her neck would not get on the van's carpet and dumped her body over the side of a deep canyon.
On 8 July Bittaker and Norris again were stalking victims on the Pacific Coast Highway when they spotted Andrea Joy Hall, age eighteen, hitchhiking. The first attempt to pick her up was unsuccessful because she got into a white convertible, but thinking she would get out sooner of later, they followed her. Around the noon, she was let out of the convertible and then picked up by Bittaker while Norris hid under the bed. At Bittaker's urging, Hall obtained a drink from the cooler in the back of the van, at which point Norris made his move to subdue her. Hall's assault followed much like Schaeffer's, with the exception that she was photographed, providing souvenirs for her killers to recall the look of terror on her face. At this point, Bittaker and Norris were becoming comfortable enough with their crime to experiment with torturing their victims, verbally and physically. Hall had an ice pick jabbed into her brain, first through one ear, then the other. She was then strangled and thrown over the cliff.
The next two victims were Jackie Doris Gilliam, age fifteen and Jacqueline Leah Lamp, age thirteen. The girls had been walking and hitchhiking casually along the road and had stopped for a rest at a buss-stop bench when the van pulled up beside them. They entered the van voluntarily, but became uneasy when it turned away from the beach and headed for the mountains. As lamp attempted to open the van door, Norris struck her over the head with a bat. Bittaker stopped to help Norris subdue the two girls and then headed to San Dimas, California.
Gilliam and Lamp were held for nearly forty-eight hours before they were murdered. Both were tortured, and Norris took approximately twenty-four Polaroid photographs of Gilliam and Bittaker engaged in various sexual acts. She was then stabbed through the ear with an ice pick, manually strangled, and finally struck on the head with a sledgehammer. Norris claims that Lamp was not sexually assaulted. Before he savagely battered her head with a sledgehammer, Bittaker remarked, "You wanted to stay a virgin, now you can die a virgin.". With this torture session, as well with the next one, Bittaker and Norris decided to further preserve their exploits by using a tape recorder.
Shirley Lynette Ledford was last seen hitchhiking on 31 October 1979 around 10:45 P.M. in Sun Valley, California. After Bittaker and Norris picked her up hitchhiking, they enacted the assault differently. Instead of heading for their spot in the mountains, they opted drive around the streets near San Fernando Valley as they tortured Ledford. She was struck on the elbows repeatedly with a 3-pound sledgehammer. Bittaker decided Ledford was not screaming enough to suit him, so he retrieved a pair of pliers and vice-grips from his toolbox and pinched her nipples and vagina with them. Ledford was also raped and sodomized. Her torment finally ended with a coat hanger tightened by the vice-grips around her neck.
Her nude body was dumped on the front lawn of a Sunland residence so the offenders could enjoy the reaction of the news media.
All the victims were targeted because they manifested some common characteristics that suited the preference of Bittaker and Norris. They all were white females, within a narrow age range, unknowns to the offenders and considered high-risk victims because they were hitchhiking or walking along the highway.
Crime Scene Indicators
The crime scenes of Bittaker and Norris typified organized sadistic murder: they were carefully planned offences that reflected overall control in conversation and of the victims themselves by the use of restraints. Bittaker derived enjoyment from engaging victims in conversation governed by him. He used the conversation as a means of torture in itself; making victims plead for their lives substantiated his sense of domination.
Their abductions were well planned, beginning with the customizing the offenders did on the van. The weapons, the tool of their assault, were never an issue until capture because the actual crime scene was within the van. At the abduction sites, the only evidence left behind was Schaeffer's shoe.
Bittaker and Norris transported the victims to remote sites that posed to no risk of interruption or discovery. This ensured the lengthy contact with the victims that was required to fulfill the fantasies and drives that fueled their acts of sadistic murder. Several bodies were transported to a different disposal site from the death scene. With Norris' help, investigators found the broken skeletal remains of Gilliam and Lamp scattered over an area hundreds of feet along the canyon floor. No trace of Schaeffer's or Hall's body was found due to the well-selected disposal sites.
The setting of Ledford's death and assault was still within the realm of the organized, controlled scene, despite the body being left in view with no effort to conceal it. Bittaker's craving for some recognition of his crime was his incentive for this change in MO. There was no staging involved with these homicides.
Forensic Finding
As described before, Lucinda Schaeffer's and Andrea Hall's remains were never found. Partial remains of Gilliam and Lamp, including their battered skulls, were found in the Glendora Mountains. Gilliam still had the ice pick inserted in her right ear.
Shirley Ledford's autopsy revealed death was due to strangulation with a wire ligature around her neck. There was a linear compression mark and soft tissue and petechial hemorrhage around her neck. There was evidence of multiple blunt-force trauma to the face, head and breasts. Her rectum, the lining inside her rectum, and her vagina had been torn, in part due to the insertion of a pair of pliers by Bittaker. There were bruises on her left elbow, a cut to the right index finger, and a puncture wound to the left hand. The wrists and ankles had ligature marks as well.
Investigation
Bittaker and Norris engaged in other crimes during this time period in addition to the sadistic murders. There were at least three separate incidents: an attempted rape, a rape kidnapping, and an assault with mace. Photos were found after Bittaker and Norris' arrests that were indicative of another victim, an unknown white female, who remains unidentified. One of the victims who was raped and released identified Bittaker and Norris as her assailants. Norris and Bittaker were arrested for charges other than the murder charges in the hope that one or both would fold under interrogation and confess. Norris eventually did, shifting the blame to Bittaker in an attempt to save himself. The motive for the brutal murders is perhaps best explained by Dr. Ronald Markman, a forensic psychiatrist who examined the offenders. He describes them as being sociopaths who know right from wrong but simply do not care. "They lack the internal prohibitions, or conscience, that keep most of us from giving full expression to our most primitive, and sometimes violent, impulses" (Markman, 1989,268). Dr. Markman stated that by their union Bittaker and Norris helped each other "fulfill their most savage, primitive potential as sociopaths" (Markman, 1989,268).
Outcome
Roy Norris pleaded guilty to four counts of first-decree murder, one count of second-degree murder, two counts of rape, and one count of robbery. He is scheduled to serve a minimum of thirty years. Lawrence Bittaker was found guilty of twenty-six counts of murder, rape, kidnapping, and torture on 17 February 1981. It took forty minutes just for the court clerk to read the verdicts. Bittaker received the death penalty.
-FBI Crime Classification Manual, CASE STUDY: SADISTIC MURDER (134)
[note: John Douglas prepared actor Scott Glenn for the role of Jack Crawford in The Silence of The Lambs by playing portions of audio tapes recorded by Bittaker and Norris during their killings.]
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Crime Classification Manual : A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crimes
by John E. Douglas
134. Sadistic murder
A sexual sadist is someone who has established "an enduring pattern of sexual arousal in response to sadistic imagery" (Dietz, Hazelwood & Warren, 1990, 165). Sexual gratification is obtained from torture involving excessive mental and physical means. The offender derives the greatest satisfaction from the victim's response to torture. Sexually sadistic fantasies in which sexual acts are pained with domination, degradation, and violence are translated into criminal action that results in death.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Voices of death
Word-to-word statements from convicted killers
Michael Newton's SERIAL SLAUGHTER: WHAT'S BEHIND AMERICA'S MURDER EPIDEMIC?
"It doesn't bother me in the least. There are a hell of a lot worse things that can happen than to die in the gas chamber."
- Douglas Clark
"I kept hearing her talking to me and telling me to do things. And I couldn't do it. I had one voice that was trying to made me commit a suicide, and I wouldn't do it. I had another one telling me to do anything they told me to do. That's what got me in the hospital, was not doing what they told me to do."
- Henry Lee Lucas
"Every man has his passion. Some prefer whist. I prefer killing people."
- Rudolf Pleil
"If I gave a shit about the parents, I wouldn't have killed the kid."
- Clifford Olson
"He was a kid. It was all there in front of him, his whole life, sex, fun, all of it. Why should he have it when I never did? I took it all away from him. Besides, I never killed a kid before. I wanted to see how it felt."
- Stephen Nash
"I figure, well, if I ever get a change to kill somebody, I'll just kill them, even if it was just an old man."
- Joseph Danks
"I don't know why I do it. I get headaches, pass out and hear funny noises"
- Anthony Spencer
"In my lifetime I have murdered twenty-one human beings, I have committed thousands of burglaries, robberies, larcenies, arsons and last but not least I have committed sodomy on more than 1000 male human beings. For all these things I am not in the least bit sorry."
- Carl Panzram
"Hurry it up, you bastard. I could hang a dozen men while you're fooling around."
- Carl Panzram, to his executioner
"Even though this court may pronounce me guilty a thousand times, the higher court of our great Aryan warrior god pronounces me innocent. Heil Hitler!"
- Frank Spisak
"I want the chair. That's what I've always wanted. My lawyer told me there are a hundred men waiting to die in the chair. I'm asking the judge if I can have the first man's sweating. I'm ready for it."
- Mark Edwards
"You had better put me to death, because next time it might be one of you or your daughter."
- Steven Judy
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Kysymys oli,
tiedätkö mitä on pahuus? - Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
Kysymys oli,
tiedätkö mitä on pahuus?> Kysymys oli,
tiedätkö mitä on pahuus?
Pahuus on tietenkin sitä, että asettaa Jumalalle kumppaneita! - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
> Kysymys oli,
tiedätkö mitä on pahuus?
Pahuus on tietenkin sitä, että asettaa Jumalalle kumppaneita!http://www.minedu.fi/opm/koulutus/yleisivistava/esiopetus.html
- AHH
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
> Kysymys oli,
tiedätkö mitä on pahuus?
Pahuus on tietenkin sitä, että asettaa Jumalalle kumppaneita!Vähintäin 700 tuntia vuodessa, luvattiin. Riittääkö se? Voi sitä Biloa, minkä teki.
- Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
http://www.minedu.fi/opm/koulutus/yleisivistava/esiopetus.html
- bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
on paljon!
mitä tarkoitat? - Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
on paljon!
mitä tarkoitat?Siis myönnätkö, että sinussa (tai sinun kuvassasi) on paljon pahuutta ;)
No, joka tapauksessa, lue tämä, ja keskustellaan sen jälkeen pahuudesta.
http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/show.fcgi?category=1000000000000003&conference=1000000000000010&posting=22000000004152848 - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
Siis myönnätkö, että sinussa (tai sinun kuvassasi) on paljon pahuutta ;)
No, joka tapauksessa, lue tämä, ja keskustellaan sen jälkeen pahuudesta.
http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/show.fcgi?category=1000000000000003&conference=1000000000000010&posting=22000000004152848Minusta ei ole ja ei tule pahus!!
Jos joku teke pahus,minä ilmoitan ->sinulle ->
http://www.poliisi.fi/ - Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
Minusta ei ole ja ei tule pahus!!
Jos joku teke pahus,minä ilmoitan ->sinulle ->
http://www.poliisi.fi/Oletetaan, että elämme sinun ihanne islamilaisessa yhteiskunnassa.
Tapahtui päivänä muutamana, että oikeuden eteen tuotiin mies, joka oli ollut syntymästään asti muslimi, mutta oli nyt mennyt ottamaan kristityn kasteen ja palvoi Jeesusta.
Tällä hetkellä hän on ollut yli kolmen päivän ajan kuulusteluissa, hän tuntuu ymmärtävän tekonsa, eikä suostu palaamaan islamiin. Tarvitaan muslimioppinut ratkaisemaan, miten tämän miehen kanssa tulee menetellä.
Sinulta Kamil kysytään nyt neuvoa:
Mikä rangaistus tälle miehelle islamin mukaan kuuluu? - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
Oletetaan, että elämme sinun ihanne islamilaisessa yhteiskunnassa.
Tapahtui päivänä muutamana, että oikeuden eteen tuotiin mies, joka oli ollut syntymästään asti muslimi, mutta oli nyt mennyt ottamaan kristityn kasteen ja palvoi Jeesusta.
Tällä hetkellä hän on ollut yli kolmen päivän ajan kuulusteluissa, hän tuntuu ymmärtävän tekonsa, eikä suostu palaamaan islamiin. Tarvitaan muslimioppinut ratkaisemaan, miten tämän miehen kanssa tulee menetellä.
Sinulta Kamil kysytään nyt neuvoa:
Mikä rangaistus tälle miehelle islamin mukaan kuuluu?JUMALA tietä.
- Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
JUMALA tietä.
moron?
- Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
JUMALA tietä.
mitä tulisit tekemään vai etkö luota itseesi?
- bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
mitä tulisit tekemään vai etkö luota itseesi?
en uskolla vasta?
- Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
en uskolla vasta?
Muhammad käski tehdä islamista luopuvalle?
- bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
Muhammad käski tehdä islamista luopuvalle?
"Muhammad" Kuka hän on?
- Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
"Muhammad" Kuka hän on?
ja banaani päähän.
- Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
"Muhammad" Kuka hän on?
3:144-Muhammed ancak bir peygamberdir. Ondan önce de nice peygamberler gelip geçti. Şimdi o, ölür veya öldürülürse, siz gerisin geriye mi döneceksiniz? Her kim geri dönecek olursa, kesinlikle Allah'a bir zarar veremeyecektir. Fakat Allah, şükredenleri yakında mükafatlandıracak.
Tämä Muhammed. Tarvitseeko toistaa kysymys? - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
3:144-Muhammed ancak bir peygamberdir. Ondan önce de nice peygamberler gelip geçti. Şimdi o, ölür veya öldürülürse, siz gerisin geriye mi döneceksiniz? Her kim geri dönecek olursa, kesinlikle Allah'a bir zarar veremeyecektir. Fakat Allah, şükredenleri yakında mükafatlandıracak.
Tämä Muhammed. Tarvitseeko toistaa kysymys?>
Mitä
Kirjoittanut: Jake.Waits, 1.8.2004 klo 18.28
Muhammad käski tehdä islamista luopuvalle?
/
Muhammed, Muhammad, Mohammed, Möhämmääd
Kirjoittanut: Jake.Waits, 1.8.2004 klo 18.42
- bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Onko Jumala kaiken luoja?
Vastaus,
ON,
-*
AL-FAATIHA (Avauksen suura)
Aloitan JUMALAN, laupiaan Armahtajan, nimeen.
1. Ylistys Jumalalle, maailmojen Valtiaalle,
2. armolahjojen Antajalle, laupiaalle Ohjaajalle ja Siunaajalle,
3. jonka hallussa yksin on Tilinteon päivä.
4. Sinua ainoata palvelemme, Sinua huudamme avuksi.
5. Ohjaa meidät oikeata tietä,
6. niiden tietä, joiden osana on Sinun mielisuosiosi
7. ei niiden tietä, jotka ovat Sinun vihasi alaisia, eikä niiden,jotka harhaan eksyvät. - AHH
Jumala on kaiken luoja, niin ihmisten kuin tekojenkin?
- bilo (kamil Akkaya)
"niin ihmisten kuin tekojenkin?"
STOP!
Ihmisten teko!
Jos joku halua olla saatanan kansa helveti asti
se on hänän oma valinta,koska JUMALA luonut
myös saatana! - AHH
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
"niin ihmisten kuin tekojenkin?"
STOP!
Ihmisten teko!
Jos joku halua olla saatanan kansa helveti asti
se on hänän oma valinta,koska JUMALA luonut
myös saatana!Onko Jumala luonut myös teot? Siis voidaanko teot lukea myös Jumalan luomistyöksi?
- bilo (kamil Akkaya)
AHH kirjoitti:
Onko Jumala luonut myös teot? Siis voidaanko teot lukea myös Jumalan luomistyöksi?
"teot"
Mitä on teot? - AHH
Tarkoitan mitä tahansa ihmisen tekemää. Kukkien keräämistä, kadulle sylkemistä, rakastamista, vihaamista, almujen antamista, varastamista...
Jos Jumala on KAIKEN luoja, niin onko Hän luonut myös teot, joita ihminen tekee?Jos Hän ei ole luonut tekoja, niin silloin Jumala ei ole kaiken luoja. - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
AHH kirjoitti:
Tarkoitan mitä tahansa ihmisen tekemää. Kukkien keräämistä, kadulle sylkemistä, rakastamista, vihaamista, almujen antamista, varastamista...
Jos Jumala on KAIKEN luoja, niin onko Hän luonut myös teot, joita ihminen tekee?Jos Hän ei ole luonut tekoja, niin silloin Jumala ei ole kaiken luoja.Totta. JUMALA kaiken luoja!
Mutta ihmiselle on vapa valinta, koska ihmiselle
on aivot!(keho ja sielu -ihminen on kaksi)
kaksi asian yhdistäminen tuotta tulos (teot!)
"kadulle sylkemistä,"
Tekijä tekee päätöksen,jos hän halua irtatua syljestä,
hän voi saada luvan. Jos siitä tulee vaikutukset(heti tai myöhemmin) täytyy hyväksy se oli
tekijen halu!
Ennen teke jotain täytyy mietti paljon ja teke
oikei pätös,koska sinulle on aivot ja vapa valinta!
/ - I love people
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
Totta. JUMALA kaiken luoja!
Mutta ihmiselle on vapa valinta, koska ihmiselle
on aivot!(keho ja sielu -ihminen on kaksi)
kaksi asian yhdistäminen tuotta tulos (teot!)
"kadulle sylkemistä,"
Tekijä tekee päätöksen,jos hän halua irtatua syljestä,
hän voi saada luvan. Jos siitä tulee vaikutukset(heti tai myöhemmin) täytyy hyväksy se oli
tekijen halu!
Ennen teke jotain täytyy mietti paljon ja teke
oikei pätös,koska sinulle on aivot ja vapa valinta!
/Se oli pahuutta, kun sinun bilo chili pizza kebabin ikkuna rikottiin, joskus. Se oli pahuutta se.
Kuka sen muuten rikkoi? - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
I love people kirjoitti:
Se oli pahuutta, kun sinun bilo chili pizza kebabin ikkuna rikottiin, joskus. Se oli pahuutta se.
Kuka sen muuten rikkoi?Hän on rikkonut kaksikerta! Koska oikeus tuomitse
hän 20 euro sakkolla! Ja nyt porukka kysy "jos
minä maksan 20 euro voinko rikko kumpi ikkuna
tahansa?"
(vapa Maa!?)
Oli tv2 ssa(poliisi tv´ssä) - AHH
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
Totta. JUMALA kaiken luoja!
Mutta ihmiselle on vapa valinta, koska ihmiselle
on aivot!(keho ja sielu -ihminen on kaksi)
kaksi asian yhdistäminen tuotta tulos (teot!)
"kadulle sylkemistä,"
Tekijä tekee päätöksen,jos hän halua irtatua syljestä,
hän voi saada luvan. Jos siitä tulee vaikutukset(heti tai myöhemmin) täytyy hyväksy se oli
tekijen halu!
Ennen teke jotain täytyy mietti paljon ja teke
oikei pätös,koska sinulle on aivot ja vapa valinta!
/Mikä ohjaa ihmistä pahuuteen, vaikka hän tietää rangaistuksen tulevan ennemmin tai myöhemmin - tavalla tai toisella?
Jumala on luonut ihmiselle kehon ja sielun ja kyvyn käyttää aivojaan sekä hyvään että pahaan tekoon. Siis Jumala on luonut teot. - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
AHH kirjoitti:
Mikä ohjaa ihmistä pahuuteen, vaikka hän tietää rangaistuksen tulevan ennemmin tai myöhemmin - tavalla tai toisella?
Jumala on luonut ihmiselle kehon ja sielun ja kyvyn käyttää aivojaan sekä hyvään että pahaan tekoon. Siis Jumala on luonut teot.JUMALA luonut myrkyliste sieni!
JUMALA on luonut kaikki!
Ja jokaiselle on oma tarkoitus
Syöykö sinä myrkyliste sieni? Miten teet pätös? - Esko
AHH kirjoitti:
Mikä ohjaa ihmistä pahuuteen, vaikka hän tietää rangaistuksen tulevan ennemmin tai myöhemmin - tavalla tai toisella?
Jumala on luonut ihmiselle kehon ja sielun ja kyvyn käyttää aivojaan sekä hyvään että pahaan tekoon. Siis Jumala on luonut teot.>>Jumala on luonut ihmiselle kehon ja sielun ja kyvyn käyttää aivojaan sekä hyvään että pahaan tekoon. Siis Jumala on luonut teot.
Jumala on luonut kehon, aivot,jne, mutta ne eivät ole sama asia kuin teot. Lukeeko Raamatussa, että Jumala loi teot?
On selvää, että itsenäinen toimiva yksilö voi tehdä sellaisia tekoja, jotka eivät ole ennalta määrättyjä. Sellainen random-generaattorikin on tehty, joka tuottaa jatkuvasti ennalta arvaamattomia lukuja. Samoin ihminenkin voisi tehdä jatkuvasti jotain ennalta arvaamatonta, mutta hänellä on syntymässä saatuja rajoituksia.
Oletko jo lukenut liikaa muslimien "viisautta", jossa Allah on määrännyt kaiken etukäteen? Sehän on yksinkertaista tyhmyyttä. Vaikka miten suuri tyhmyys näyttää kelpaavan muslimeille, kun sen sanotaan olevan Allahilta saatua. - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Esko kirjoitti:
>>Jumala on luonut ihmiselle kehon ja sielun ja kyvyn käyttää aivojaan sekä hyvään että pahaan tekoon. Siis Jumala on luonut teot.
Jumala on luonut kehon, aivot,jne, mutta ne eivät ole sama asia kuin teot. Lukeeko Raamatussa, että Jumala loi teot?
On selvää, että itsenäinen toimiva yksilö voi tehdä sellaisia tekoja, jotka eivät ole ennalta määrättyjä. Sellainen random-generaattorikin on tehty, joka tuottaa jatkuvasti ennalta arvaamattomia lukuja. Samoin ihminenkin voisi tehdä jatkuvasti jotain ennalta arvaamatonta, mutta hänellä on syntymässä saatuja rajoituksia.
Oletko jo lukenut liikaa muslimien "viisautta", jossa Allah on määrännyt kaiken etukäteen? Sehän on yksinkertaista tyhmyyttä. Vaikka miten suuri tyhmyys näyttää kelpaavan muslimeille, kun sen sanotaan olevan Allahilta saatua.Oliko sinun viisaus riittanut kun olit
0-1.5 vuotias? vai olitko silloin luenut Raamattu?!
JUMALA tietä kaikki.
- AHH
Jumala on kaiken luoja- niin ihmisten kuin myös tekojen luoja.
Teot ovat siis luomistyötä myös, eli tekojen todellinen tekijä on luoja ja ihminen on vain tekojen välikappale valitsemalla teon, jonka luoja on luonut ja saa tekonsa tuloksen omaksi ansiokseen tai synnikseen.
Siis,
Teot, hyvät ja pahat, tapahtuvat ihmisen kautta vaikka hän ei olekaan niiden tekijä. Tekijä on luoja.
Jumala oli luonut myös Ibliksen - paholaisen.
Iblis sanoi: Sinä loit minut tulesta ja tuli on palaava tulen luo. Sinun on valta päättää ja säätää.- bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jokaiselle on oma tarkoitus.
Minun tehtävä on se otta oikein! (jos JUMALA
hyväksy)
------*
Rahman ve Rahim Allah'ın adıyla...
38.
37 Şeytanları da onun emrine verdik. Hepsi bina ustası ve dalgıçtı. - Esko
>> Jumala on kaiken luoja- niin ihmisten kuin myös tekojen luoja.
Jos tämä sinun ajatuksesi olisi oikea, ei yhtään rikollista voitaisi tuomita heidän teoistaan. Kaikki teot olisivat Luojan töitä.
Raamatussakin sanotaan selvästi, että jokainen tuomitaan tekojensa mukaan. Ihminen on teoistaan vastuussa, eikä luoja. Tästä on vain poikkeuksena eräät sairaat, joita pannaan hoitoon.
Jäät siis aika yksin näine väitteinesi. Luoja ei ole ihmisen tekojen luoja, se on itsestään selvää. Olet hieman päästäsi sekaisin. - AHH
Esko kirjoitti:
>> Jumala on kaiken luoja- niin ihmisten kuin myös tekojen luoja.
Jos tämä sinun ajatuksesi olisi oikea, ei yhtään rikollista voitaisi tuomita heidän teoistaan. Kaikki teot olisivat Luojan töitä.
Raamatussakin sanotaan selvästi, että jokainen tuomitaan tekojensa mukaan. Ihminen on teoistaan vastuussa, eikä luoja. Tästä on vain poikkeuksena eräät sairaat, joita pannaan hoitoon.
Jäät siis aika yksin näine väitteinesi. Luoja ei ole ihmisen tekojen luoja, se on itsestään selvää. Olet hieman päästäsi sekaisin.Silloin luoja ei olekaan kaiken luoja.
- Esko
AHH kirjoitti:
Silloin luoja ei olekaan kaiken luoja.
>> Silloin luoja ei olekaan kaiken luoja.
Se väite onkin väärä väite, jos väitetään Luojan tekevän kaikki teot. Jos uskot mitä tahansa muslimit sanoo, he kuljettavat sinua kuin pässiä narussa. Toiset ei kuitenkaan lähde samaan leikkiin mukaan.
- bilo (kamil Akkaya)
http://www.kuran.gen.tr/html/fince/009.php3
Aloitan JUMALAN, laupiaan Armahtajan, nimeen.
9.
70. Eikö kertomus heidän edeltäjistään ole tullut heidän tietoonsa - Nooan ja Aadin ja Thamuudin kansasta, Aabrahamin kansasta, Midianin asukkaista ja tuhoutuneista kaupungeista? Heille lähetetyt profeetat tulivat heidän luokseen tuoden selvät todistukset. Sillä Jumala ei tehnyt vääryyttä heille, vaan he itse tekivät itselleen vääryyttä.- Jake.Waits
>Sillä Jumala ei tehnyt vääryyttä heille, vaan he itse tekivät itselleen vääryyttä.
Mutta tekivätkö he vääryyttä itse vai määräsikö Jumala heidät tekemään vääryyttä?
Eiväthän nämä väärintekijät voineet tehdä vääryyttä ilman, että Jumala tahtoi niin. - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
>Sillä Jumala ei tehnyt vääryyttä heille, vaan he itse tekivät itselleen vääryyttä.
Mutta tekivätkö he vääryyttä itse vai määräsikö Jumala heidät tekemään vääryyttä?
Eiväthän nämä väärintekijät voineet tehdä vääryyttä ilman, että Jumala tahtoi niin.Minä menen nukku!
/ - Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
Minä menen nukku!
/ja lepää kunnolla, jotta pystyisit keskittymään keskusteluun.
PS. Sinä et muuten päättänyt itse lähteä nukkumaan, vaan Allah päätti sen. Sinä vain toteutat Allahin tahdon ...kuin nukke. - bilo (kamil Akkaya)
Jake.Waits kirjoitti:
ja lepää kunnolla, jotta pystyisit keskittymään keskusteluun.
PS. Sinä et muuten päättänyt itse lähteä nukkumaan, vaan Allah päätti sen. Sinä vain toteutat Allahin tahdon ...kuin nukke.Pian sinun vuoro! *Heh Heh He*
- Jake.Waits
bilo (kamil Akkaya) kirjoitti:
Pian sinun vuoro! *Heh Heh He*
söin jo hampurilaisen
El Macon
heh heh heh
- St Morningstar.
Tervehdys.
Vanhat jumalat olivat vain kehityneempi kansa, omasta mielestäni.
Todellista jumaluutta on ihmisen vaikea käsittää, eikä jumalaa voi ymmärtää keskellä luomakuntaa kun on subjektiivinen näkökulma luomakunnan asioihin.
Itseasiass voinkin väitää, että maailmassa on kaksi energiaa yin/yang, jotka loivat maailman energiasta, kaikki perustuu maailmassa vastakohtiin hyvä/paha koska meillä on nämä energiat.
Se on subjektiivista miten sitten energiat kokee.
Tämä on oma mielipiteeni jumalasta, eikä ole provosointimielessä tehty kirjoitus.
St Morningstar
"Ollakko vai eikö olla...siinäpä kysymys.!"- bilo (kamil Akkaya)
näytkö jotain?Minkä avulla?
- kamil (bilo) Akkaya
- AHH
Ymmärrän kyllä mitä tarkoitat. Meidän, jotka olemme kasvaneet toisenlaisessa uskonnollisessa ympäristössä kuin muslimit, on yksinkertaisesti pakko lukea islaminuskoa käsittelevää kirjallisuutta ymmärtääksemme uskon perusteita.
Tilanne on muslimimaissa erilainen sikäli, että niissä maissa uskoon kasvetaan jo lapsesta asti eikä opittua helposti aikuisiällä kyseenalaisteta.
Otin kuvan tapahtuman henkilökohtaisena tölväisynä itseäni kohtaan. On ikävää, jos näet keskusteluni ja islaminuskoon tutustumisen ja asioiden molemminpuolisen pohdiskelun tekopyhyytenä. - kamil (bilo) Akkaya
AHH kirjoitti:
Ymmärrän kyllä mitä tarkoitat. Meidän, jotka olemme kasvaneet toisenlaisessa uskonnollisessa ympäristössä kuin muslimit, on yksinkertaisesti pakko lukea islaminuskoa käsittelevää kirjallisuutta ymmärtääksemme uskon perusteita.
Tilanne on muslimimaissa erilainen sikäli, että niissä maissa uskoon kasvetaan jo lapsesta asti eikä opittua helposti aikuisiällä kyseenalaisteta.
Otin kuvan tapahtuman henkilökohtaisena tölväisynä itseäni kohtaan. On ikävää, jos näet keskusteluni ja islaminuskoon tutustumisen ja asioiden molemminpuolisen pohdiskelun tekopyhyytenä.puuttelinen jos yksikin kukka puuttuisi
sinä olet sivistynyt ,sopiva joka kukka tarhan!
Maailma ei ole kaunis ilman kukka!
Ketjusta on poistettu 0 sääntöjenvastaista viestiä.
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