Ristin alkuperä

Ethän nyt vahingossakaan viittaa joihinkin muihin lähteisiin kuin Raamattuun? Muistammehan ettei ne kelvanneet Nooan tapauksessakaan.


Jos meinaan on tarkoitus siirtyä keskustelemaan Jeesuksesta ja teloitusvälineestä.

fger kirjoitti:

Ethän nyt vahingossakaan viittaa joihinkin muihin lähteisiin kuin Raamattuun? Muistammehan ettei ne kelvanneet Nooan tapauksessakaan.


Jos meinaan on tarkoitus siirtyä keskustelemaan Jeesuksesta ja teloitusvälineestä.

Response to Volume 16 of the The Watchman Expositor - Jehovah Witnesses
(Dyland Desmarais)
The purpose of this post is a response to an article published in Volume
16 of the The Watchman Expositor. In the article the Watchman attack
the stand Jehovah Witnesses take on the cross.

The Watchman Expositor uses 3 points in proving their case, 1) Greek
grammar, 2) cross reference and 3) archaeology. I will address these on
by one.

[Expositor]
1. Greek: stauros: Using partial quotes and references, the Watchtower
Society asserts that the Greek word stauros in the New Testament should
not be translated as “cross” but as “stake” or “pole.” They state: “In
classical Greek the word (stau·ros’) rendered ‘torture stake’ in the New
World Translation primarily denotes an upright stake, or pole, and there
is no evidence that the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures used
it to designate a stake with a crossbeam.” They also say, “Stau·ros’ in
both the classical Greek and Koine carries no thought of a “cross” made
of two timbers. It means only an upright stake, pale, pile, or pole….”1


[My Response]

I find it ironic that the Expositor begins by accusing the Watchtower
Society of using "partial quotes and references" and then in the same
paragraph and throughout their article does the same thing. Continue
reading for more.

Jehovah Witnesses are not the only ones who feel the same way about the
rendering of the greek word stauros. Here are some references from
other sources . . .

"There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming
the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect
evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was
other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it
consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together
in the form of a cross."
- John Denham Parsons The Non-Christian Cross, London 1896, pp 23

"Literally an upright stake, pale, or pole... As an instrument of
execution, the cross was a stake sunk vertically in the ground. Often,
but by no means always, a horizontal piece was attached to the vertical
portion."
- The Jnterpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible with reference to stauros

"The Greek word for cross, stauros’, properly signified a stake, an
upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or
which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground.
- The Imperial Bible Dictionary Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874),
Vol. I, p. 376.

"Jesus died on a simple death-stake: In support of this there speak (a)
the then customary usage of this means of execution in the Orient, (b)
indirectly the history itself of Jesus’ sufferings and (c) many
expressions of the early church fathers."
- Hermann Fulda, The Cross and Crucifixion.

Fulda also points out that some of the oldest illustrations of Jesus
impaled depict him on a simple pole.

[Expositor]

When the Greek lexicons are checked, however, one finds this is not the
case. Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich’s A Greek-English Lexicon of the New
Testament states: “…a stake sunk into the earth in an upright position;
a cross-piece was oft attached to its upper part, so that it was shaped
like a T or thus U.”2 In Thayer’s Lexicon the number two definition for
stauros is “a cross.”3

[My response}

It is interesting that the expositor fails to mention the following . .
.

. . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived)
appears to have been originally an upright pole.”

— The Imperial Bible-Dictionary Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874),
Vol. I, p. 376.

" It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to
translate the word stauros as ‘cross’ when rendering the Greek documents
of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by
putting ‘cross’ in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without
carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning
of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary
signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only
because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was for some
reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was
executed had that particular shape.”

— John Denham Parsons The Non-Christian Cross, London 1896, p 24

{ see also The Companion Bible (London, 1885), Appendix No. 162. }


The Expositor also fails to mention that the Bible uses the word "
xy'lon " as well to identify the device used.

The meaning of " xy'lon " is defined as :
“Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood,
log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were
impaled . . . of live wood, tree.”
A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191,
1192

It also says “in NT, of the cross,” and cites Acts 5:30 and Acts10:39 as
examples.

In these two examples The New World Translation translate " xy'lon" as
"stake". Is it in error?

Notice how these other translations render these scriptures . . .

Acts 5:30:

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a
tree.
Authorized king james version

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a
tree.
New King James Version

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a
tree
American Standard Version

The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a
tree.
Revised Standard Version

Acts10:39

And we are witnesses to all that he did both in the country of the
Jewsand in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree;
Revised Standard Version

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of
the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
American Standard Version

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the
Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree
Authorized king james version


Please also compare this rendering with Galatians 3:13 and Deuteronomy
21:22, 23.


[Expositor]
2. Cross-reference: The Watchtower’s “torture stake” theory is
illustrated in Awake! with a drawing of Jesus hanging on a stake with
both hands over his head and a single nail piercing both wrists.4 When
cross-referenced with John 20:25, however, it is clear that two nails
were used on Christ’s hands, not one. Thomas said, “…Except I shall see
in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of
the nails… I will not believe.” Note he said nails (plural). A cross
beam would require at least two nails because the hands would be to
either side rather than together above the head as on a stake.

[My Response]

This is a VERY WEAK ARGUMENT. I will let the April 1 Watchtower 1964
p.31 answer this:
*****************************
Is it correct to conclude from John 20:25 that Jesus was impaled with a
separate nail through each hand?

The Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature,
by M’Clintock and Strong, comments:
‘Much time and trouble have been wasted in disputing as to whether three
or four nails were used in fastening the Lord. Nonnus affirms that three
only were used, in which he is followed by Gregory Nazianzen. The more
general belief gives four nails, an opinion which is supported at much
length and by curious arguments by Curtius. Others have carried the
number of nails as high as fourteen.’—Volume II, page 580.

Matthew 27:35 merely says: “When they had impaled him they distributed
his outer garments by casting lots.” Little detail is given, as in Mark,
Luke and John. After Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas said: “Unless I see in
his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of
the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not
believe.” (John 20:25) So even though criminals sometimes were bound to
a stake with ropes, Jesus was nailed. Some have also concluded from John
20:25 that two nails were used, one through each hand. But does Thomas’
use of the plural (nails) have to be understood as a precise description
indicating that each of Jesus’ hands was pierced by a separate nail?
In Luke 24:39 the resurrected Jesus said: “See my hands and my feet,
that it is I myself.” This suggests that Christ’s feet also were nailed.
Since Thomas made no mention of nailprints in Jesus’ feet, his use of
the plural “nails” could have been a general reference to multiple nails
used in impaling Jesus.
****************************
Any drawings of Jesus on the stake should be understood as artists’
productions that offer merely a representation based on the limited
facts that we have.

Thus, it just is not possible at this point to state with certainty how
many nails were used. I am shocked that the Expositor would use this.



[ Expositor]
3. Archaeology: The Watchtower Society not only claims that Christ did
not die on a cross, they further state that there is no evidence that a
cross with a crossbeam was ever even used by Romans during the first
century. They claim the stake was “the then customary usage of this
means of execution in the Orient.” They maintain, “The evidence is,
therefore, com-pletely lacking that Jesus Christ was crucified on two
pieces of timber placed at right angles…. The passing of time and
further archaeological discoveries will be certain to prove its [torture
stake] correctness.” This last quote was first published in 1969. In
1968, perhaps at the same time the claim was being written, a discovery
was made in a dig in Jerusalem that cripples the Watchtower’s argument.
In 1968 the remains of a crucified man named Yehoanan were unearthed in
Jerusalem dating to the time Christ. The book, Archaeological Commentary
on the Bible states: “Both heals had been pierced by a single large and
crude iron nail. His open arms had been nailed in the way shown in the
traditional crucifixion paintings….”

[My Response]

Once again, the Expositor does a poor job in researching their facts.
Lets examine this in a bit more detail on this crucified man they found:

Back in 1968 some burial caves were accidentally discovered near
Jerusalem. Inside, among the reburied bones, was what seemed to be an
outstanding find—heel bones pierced by a rusty spike. Dr. Nico Haas,
anatomist and anthropologist of Hebrew University-Hadassah Medical
School, led an investigation of these particular bones.

What were the doctors conclusions?

He reported that what was discovered was nothing less than the remains
of a man executed on a cross in the first century. It seemed, basically,
that the victim’s two heels were nailed together to an upright stake,
but the nail bent at the tip when it hit a knot in the wood. After the
Jewish victim was dead, relatives had trouble pulling the nail free, so
it was left in his heels at burial. Since one nail pierced both heel
bones and since it seemed that the leg bones had cut at an angle, Dr.
Haas reported that the victim likely was executed in the position shown
below. (Dr. Haas also felt that a scratch on an arm bone indicated that
the man’s arms were nailed to a crossbeam.)
- Israel Exploration Journal (1970, Volume 20, pages 38-59)


In the next few years, some noted scholars, such as Professor Yigal
Yadin, anthropologist Joseph Zias (Israel Department of Antiquities and
Museums) and Eliezer Sekeles (Hebrew University-Hadassah Medical School,
began to question conclusions that Haas had reached. They had studied
the original evidence, photographs, casts, and radiographs of the bones.
You may be surprised at some of their findings:

The nail was shorter than Haas had reported and thus would not have been
long enough to pierce two heel bones and the wood. Pieces of bone had
been misidentified. There was no bone from a second heel; the nail
pierced only one heel. Some bone fragments were from another individual
altogether. The scratched arm bone “was not convincing” evidence of
nailing to a crossbeam; ‘in fact, two similar marks were observed on a
leg bone; neither are connected with the crucifixion.’
What conclusions did this new analysis lead to? “Both the initial and
final reconstruction of the crucifixion [by Haas] are technically and
anatomically impossible when one considers the new evidence . . . We
found no evidence of the left heel bone and calculated that the nail was
sufficient for affixing only one heel bone . . . The lack of traumatic
injury to the forearm and metacarpals of the hand seems to suggest that
the arms of the condemned were tied rather than nailed.”
- Israel Exploration Journal (1985, Volume 35, pages 22-7) titled: “A
Reappraisal,”

[ Expositor]
The cross is an important symbol for Christians because it is on a cross
that Christ died for their sins. It is faith in Christ’s atoning death
on the cross, burial, and resurrection that saves (1 Corinthians
15:1-4).

[My Response]

Please see the following post


Dyland
Have questions about Jehovah's Witnesses or
would you like a free home bible study?
http://www.watchtower.org or http://www.jw-media.org



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back To Main Page

"Kaikkialta egyptiläisistä muistomerkeistä ja haudoista löydetään erimuotoisia ristejä, ja monet asiantuntijat pitävät niitä joko falloksen [miehen sukupuolielimen] tai sukupuoliyhdynnän vertauskuvana. - - Egyptiläisissä haudoissa crux ansata [risti jonka yläosassa on silmukka tai kahva] esiintyy rinnatusten falloksen kanssa." (H. Cutner, A Short History of Sex-Worship, Lontoo 1940, s.16, 17; ks. myös The Non-Christian Cross, s.183)

Mitä tekemistä tuolla on sen kanssa, että roomalaiset teloittivat rikollisia ristillä ensimmäisellä vuosisadalla?

tutkija. kirjoitti:

"Kaikkialta egyptiläisistä muistomerkeistä ja haudoista löydetään erimuotoisia ristejä, ja monet asiantuntijat pitävät niitä joko falloksen [miehen sukupuolielimen] tai sukupuoliyhdynnän vertauskuvana. - - Egyptiläisissä haudoissa crux ansata [risti jonka yläosassa on silmukka tai kahva] esiintyy rinnatusten falloksen kanssa." (H. Cutner, A Short History of Sex-Worship, Lontoo 1940, s.16, 17; ks. myös The Non-Christian Cross, s.183)

Mitä tekemistä tuolla on sen kanssa, että roomalaiset teloittivat rikollisia ristillä ensimmäisellä vuosisadalla?

Mikä on 'ristin' alkuperä?

Filip. 2:8: "Hän nöyryytti itsensä ja oli kuuliainen kuolemaan asti, hamaan ristin kuolemaan asti."

Mk. 8:34-38: "Hän kutsui tykönsä kansan ynnä opetuslapsensa ja sanoi heille: 'Jos joku tahtoo minun perässäni kulkea, hän kieltäköön itsensä ja ottakoon ristinsä ja seuratkoon minua. Sillä joka tahtoo pelastaa elämänsä, hän kadotta sen, mutta joka kadottaa elämänsä minun ja evankeliumin täh den, hän pelastaa sen. Sillä mitä se hyödyttää ihmistä, vaikka hän voittaisi omaksensa koko maailman, mutta saisi vahingon sielullensa? Sillä mitä voi ihminen antaa sielunsa lunnaiksi? Sillä joka häpeää minua ja minun sanojani tässä avionrikkojassa ja syntisessä sukupolvessa, sitä myös Ihmisen Poika on häpeävä, kun hän tulee Isänsä kirkkaudessa pyhien enkelien kanssa.' "

Lk. 9:23: "Ja hän sanoi kaikille: 'Jos joku tahtoo minun perässäni kulkea, hän kieltäköön itsensä ja ottakoon joka pä ivä ristinsä ja seuratkoon minua.' "

TÄYSI EVANKELIUMI

1 Kor. 15:1-4: "Veljet, minä johdatan teidät tuntemaan sen evankeliumin, jonka minä teille julistin, jonka te myös olette ottaneet vastaan ja jossa myös pysytte ja jonka kautta te myös pelastutte, jos pidätte siitä kiinni semmoisena, kuin minä sen teille julistin, ellette turhaan ole uskoneet. Sillä minä annoin teille ennen kaikkea tiedoksi sen, minkä itse olin saanut: että Kristus on kuollut meidän syntiemme tähden, kirjoitusten mukaan, ja että hänet haudattiin ja että hän nousi kuolleista kolmantena päivänä, kirjoitusten mukaan. "

Lk. 24: 7: "Ihmisen Poika pitää annettaman syntisten ihmisten kä siin ja ristiinnaulittaman, ja hänen pitää kolmantena pä ivänä nouseman ylös."

Olen jo aiemmin kommentoinut Mr. Raamatun sivun epäkjohtia, mutta tässä tärkein Raamatun kannalta katsottuna:



...
NAULAT - Raamatun oma todistus

[Mr Raamatun] kirjoitus perustuu lähinnä yksittäisten sanojen (stauros, xylon) pyörittelyyn, mutta jätttää huomioimatta Raamatun oman sisäisen todistuksen. Kirjoittaja ei kerro lukijalle, että Jeesuksen käsissä olivat NAULOJEN [monikko] jäljet.

Staturos-sanan käännömerkityksen tutkimista ei edes tarvita, jos kuolintapa voidaan lukea jakeiden tekstistä. Raamattu itse antaa vastauksen siihen kuoliko Jeesus YHDELLÄ naulalla ripustettuna paaluun, vaan NAULOILLA hakattuna ristiin:

KR38; Joh. 20:25: Niin muut opetuslapset sanoivat hänelle: 'Me näimme Herran.' Mutta hän (Tuomas) sanoi heille: 'Ellen näe hänen käsissään naulojen [MONIKKO] jälkiä ja pistä sormeani [YKSIKKÖ] naulojen [MONIKKO] sijoihin ja pistä kättäni hänen kylkeensä, en minä usko.'

Raamattu kertoo NAULOILLA. Roomalaisten käyttämät naulat [1] olivat taottuja ja sksi järeitä ja paksuja, eivätkä hienokoneistettuja kuten nykyään. Kahta roomalaista naulaa on mahdotonta lyödä samaan käteen [3] ihmisen fysiologiasta johtuan. Käsi repeytyisi.

Ks. lääketieteen osoittama DESTOT-piste ihmisen kämmenessä [2]

SUMMARUM
========

Sivun alalaitaan merkityistä lähteistä käy ilmi, että se koostuu lähes täysin Vartiotorniseuran julkaisemista ja niistä koostetuista kirjoituksista. Kirjoituksessa ei kuitenkaan lainkaan käsitellä miksi järjestön julkaisuissa esitetään annettu tieto virheellisellä tavalla lukijoille? Esim. Justus Lipsiuksen kuvat ja niistä vedetyt johtopäätökset "paalun" todistamiseksi ovat järjestön julkaisemssa kirjallisuudessa esitetty ihmisten harhaanjohtamistarkoituksessa.

Uskovaa lukijaa kehoitetaan tutustumaan Uuden testamentin kreikan kielen todistukseen [4], että Raamattu todella puhuu nauloista monikossa ja antaa viitteitä ristin käytöstä myös muissa jakeissa (Mooseksen sivulle levitetyt kädet; aivan kuten käsillä siunataan levitettynä yhmisiä).


[1] http://www.kotiposti.net/raamattu/jt/oppi/risti/pic/extra-cross-yehonahan-article-1973-06-part3.jpg

[2] http://www.kotiposti.net/raamattu/jt/oppi/risti/pic/extra-cross-palm-anatomic-z-points.jpg

[3] Vartiotorniseuran esitys paaluun ripustamisesta: yhdellä naullalla naulattuna
http://www.kotiposti.net/raamattu/jt/oppi/risti/pic/extra-cross-jw-posture.jpg

[4] Kingdon Interlinear Translation (KIT). Vartiotorniseuran
julkaisema Uuden testamentin kreikan alkuteksti
http://www.kotiposti.net/raamattu/jt/oppi/risti/pic/kit-jh-20-25.jpg