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Someone just commented this on my recent post about hell:
“Hell is to demonstrate the magnitude of God’s holiness. Without hell it takes away from the Justice of God.
No one likes the idea of hell.. but if we live the life God has planned and set out for us.. being good morally standing people, being loving, caring, and kind. We won’t ever have to worry because God is so gracious, loving and awesome that through His son we can and will be in Heaven with Him.”
I’m gonna pick through this comment point by point, because it contains a few of the main mindless and contradictory talking points that are parroted by evangelicals who just repeat what they were told.
1. “Hell is to demonstrate the magnitude of God’s holiness.”
As Brian Zahnd said, “When describing God’s holiness, make sure that when you’re finished you have not described an omnipotent Pharisee.” Well that’s exactly what’s been done here. God’s holiness does not equal violence, killing, torture, and destroying. That’s Satan’s job. Don’t say God acts like Satan because God is holy.
God’s holiness is his perfect love. Those who manifest the fruit of the Spirit best represent what it means to be holy. When God says “Be holy as I am holy”, does he mean “Torture people for their wrongs and do violence to them.” Sounds absurd, right? That’s because it is. When God says “Be holy as I am holy”, he means to manifest love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. The reason these are called the fruit of the HOLY Spirit is it’s because it’s what holiness is about. Not torture, wrath, and violence. To say eternal wrath and torment demonstrate the magnitude of God’s holiness is not only blasphemy but stupid blasphemy at that.
When Jesus said “Love your enemies” he said “because this is what your Father is like”. When Jesus said “Blessed are the peacemakers” he said “because they will be called sons of God.” Because God loves his enemies and God is a peacemaker.
2. “Without hell it takes away from the Justice of God.”
There is nothing even remotely just about punishing someone unto billions and billions of ages never to end for a brief lifetime, no matter what sin they committed. Another absurdity. This laughable caricature of justice can’t be taken seriously, and makes justice into a monstrous injustice. The justice of God is not man’s wicked and ignorant and inhumane retributive ideal of justice times infinity. Stop making God the actual worst of human traits. It could not be more blatantly obvious that this a projection of our most demented and horrifying thoughts onto an imaginary invisible being. He doesn’t exist.
The justice of God restores and reconciles, not injures and destroys for no reason but to get back at someone, like some dumb brute from the Bronze Age. To attribute this kind of numbskull caveman justice to God is again blasphemy. Tell that “God” to ask Jesus into his heart. Tell that “God” to bow at the foot of the cross and be transformed by the love of Christ. As George Mcdonald said, the vengeance of God is to make the offender himself the avenger and his own sin the recipient of the vengeance. Not until universal reconciliation, where all wrongs are made right, will justice be served.
3. “If we live the life God has planned and set out for us.. being good morally standing people, being loving, caring, and kind. We won’t ever have to worry because God is so gracious, loving and awesome that through His son we can and will be in Heaven with Him.”
Notice that this demonstrates the same old conundrum that evangelicals just can’t ever figure out. What is salvation actually about? Is it that if I’m a good, moral, upstanding person then I’ll make it to heaven? Or is it through accepting Jesus that I make it to heaven? Here this guy tries to juggle both in his salvation from Hell equation. What a jumbled mess of works and good morals and grace and correct belief systems equaling out to going to Heaven. But let’s be honest, it’s always been that way. It’s too bad that eternal salvation, that is, not being tortured forever, is tied up in such confusing theories and ideas that we just can’t figure out.
Or... that’s not what salvation is about at all. Salvation (“Sozo”) means to be healed and made whole. To become the true kind of divine image bearing human that we were meant to be, manifesting the fruit of the Spirit, and participating in the kingdom come and the reconciliation of all things. Salvation is not about being good enough or accepting the correct atonement theory (take your pick) so that you can earn God’s grace by your correct actions or correct beliefs (again take your pick). Salvation is not about the afterlife, but about becoming a whole human being who helps others become whole human beings.
- Jacob M. Wright -
Someone just commented this on my recent post about hell:
“Hell is to demonstrate the magnitude of God’s holiness. Without hell it takes away from the Justice of God.
No one likes the idea of hell.. but if we live the life God has planned and set out for us.. being good morally standing people, being loving, caring, and kind. We won’t ever have to worry because God is so gracious, loving and awesome that through His son we can and will be in Heaven with Him.”
I’m gonna pick through this comment point by point, because it contains a few of the main mindless and contradictory talking points that are parroted by evangelicals who just repeat what they were told.
1. “Hell is to demonstrate the magnitude of God’s holiness.”
As Brian Zahnd said, “When describing God’s holiness, make sure that when you’re finished you have not described an omnipotent Pharisee.” Well that’s exactly what’s been done here. God’s holiness does not equal violence, killing, torture, and destroying. That’s Satan’s job. Don’t say God acts like Satan because God is holy.
God’s holiness is his perfect love. Those who manifest the fruit of the Spirit best represent what it means to be holy. When God says “Be holy as I am holy”, does he mean “Torture people for their wrongs and do violence to them.” Sounds absurd, right? That’s because it is. When God says “Be holy as I am holy”, he means to manifest love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. The reason these are called the fruit of the HOLY Spirit is it’s because it’s what holiness is about. Not torture, wrath, and violence. To say eternal wrath and torment demonstrate the magnitude of God’s holiness is not only blasphemy but stupid blasphemy at that.
When Jesus said “Love your enemies” he said “because this is what your Father is like”. When Jesus said “Blessed are the peacemakers” he said “because they will be called sons of God.” Because God loves his enemies and God is a peacemaker.
2. “Without hell it takes away from the Justice of God.”
There is nothing even remotely just about punishing someone unto billions and billions of ages never to end for a brief lifetime, no matter what sin they committed. Another absurdity. This laughable caricature of justice can’t be taken seriously, and makes justice into a monstrous injustice. The justice of God is not man’s wicked and ignorant and inhumane retributive ideal of justice times infinity. Stop making God the actual worst of human traits. It could not be more blatantly obvious that this a projection of our most demented and horrifying thoughts onto an imaginary invisible being. He doesn’t exist.
The justice of God restores and reconciles, not injures and destroys for no reason but to get back at someone, like some dumb brute from the Bronze Age. To attribute this kind of numbskull caveman justice to God is again blasphemy. Tell that “God” to ask Jesus into his heart. Tell that “God” to bow at the foot of the cross and be transformed by the love of Christ. As George Mcdonald said, the vengeance of God is to make the offender himself the avenger and his own sin the recipient of the vengeance. Not until universal reconciliation, where all wrongs are made right, will justice be served.
3. “If we live the life God has planned and set out for us.. being good morally standing people, being loving, caring, and kind. We won’t ever have to worry because God is so gracious, loving and awesome that through His son we can and will be in Heaven with Him.”
Notice that this demonstrates the same old conundrum that evangelicals just can’t ever figure out. What is salvation actually about? Is it that if I’m a good, moral, upstanding person then I’ll make it to heaven? Or is it through accepting Jesus that I make it to heaven? Here this guy tries to juggle both in his salvation from Hell equation. What a jumbled mess of works and good morals and grace and correct belief systems equaling out to going to Heaven. But let’s be honest, it’s always been that way. It’s too bad that eternal salvation, that is, not being tortured forever, is tied up in such confusing theories and ideas that we just can’t figure out.
Or... that’s not what salvation is about at all. Salvation (“Sozo”) means to be healed and made whole. To become the true kind of divine image bearing human that we were meant to be, manifesting the fruit of the Spirit, and participating in the kingdom come and the reconciliation of all things. Salvation is not about being good enough or accepting the correct atonement theory (take your pick) so that you can earn God’s grace by your correct actions or correct beliefs (again take your pick). Salvation is not about the afterlife, but about becoming a whole human being who helps others become whole human beings.
- Jacob M. Wright -
Vastaukset 2
Vanhimmat
Eli lyhennettynä: Jumala teki helvetin ja Saatanan jotta voi näytellä jotain hyvistä. Selvä.
Ei, vaan helvettiä ei ole olemassakaan. Jeesus ei puhunut mistään tuonpuoleisesta helvetistä vaan kaatopaikasta Jerusalemin kupeessa. Helvetti on ihmiskunnan historian suurimpia kusetuksia.