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http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_11701255

* Feb 12 16:00 YOUR EDUCATION IS IN THE HANDS OF A CAR MECHANIC (The Chad)
o Feb 12 16:50 Are you serious? That your degree was revoked? (Adult of god)
Feb 12 17:19 You didn't read it in the paper? (geneticerror)
# Feb 12 22:03 Oh, yeah. I didn't realize it was him. nt (Adult of god)
o Feb 12 22:18 TChad: Good post. Can you tell us if you are challenging that (lamedandy)
Feb 14 14:00 Re: TChad: Good post. Can you tell us if you are challenging that (The Chad)
o Feb 15 00:52 It's more than your education, Chad. . . (JoAnn)
o Feb 15 04:34 I hope you win your fight with TSCC... :-D (FreeRose)
o Feb 15 04:50 Chad, good luck with your appeal... (Michael)
o Feb 15 06:28 Hmm, re friend ... (Mårv Fråndsæn)
o Feb 15 11:05 Re: YOUR EDUCATION IS IN THE HANDS OF A CAR MECHANIC (anon4reply)
o Feb 15 13:45 Why did I not have a say? (angry taxpayer)
Feb 15 13:56 Contact Info - US Department of Education (angry taxpayer)
Feb 15 14:17 Waiting for good talking points before calling/writing (angry taxpayer)
Feb 15 14:18 Use the Federal Register effectively to find contacts (angry taxpayer)
o Feb 15 14:07 I thank God everyday I didn't get into BYULaw. Catastrophe averted (Nor Cal Law Student)

Subject:    YOUR EDUCATION IS IN THE HANDS OF A CAR MECHANIC
Date:    Feb 12 16:00
Author:   The Chad [email protected]

When you sign up for BYU, you must maintain an ecclesiastical endorsement at all times to remain a student, and obviously receive a degree. The frightening reality is that the entire time you are paying for, and attending a LDS Church owned university, your local church leaders at any time, for any reason, can call action against you, removing your ecclesiastical endorsement. This is what happened to me. A nobody from Las Vegas decided I was not worthy enough to be in the church because of my calendar project. He alone was able to remove my green light status to receive my diploma. BYU did not have to question him, nor was I given any formal hearing to present the case of what really happened before they made their decision. They used the "excommunication" as enough evidence to satisfy revoking my degree - no questions asked, no further investigation and exploration needed.

Scary.

I received this email the other day from someone who had been in a similar situation:

"While in law school at BYU, having been completely inactive for the previous 10 years in California and inspired by a mormon girlfriend, I decided to return to the church. Advising my bishop from American Fork that I had a real interest in returning to the church I was referred to a stake president who decided that a church court was needed. Suddenly my entire law school career was in the hands of a mechanic from Pleasanton."

How can an accredited university be allowed to behave in such a way?



Subject:    TChad: Good post. Can you tell us if you are challenging that
Date:    Feb 12 22:18
Author:   lamedandy

decision on your degree with legal action?
Wishing you the best.
Ms Dandy


Subject:    Re: TChad: Good post. Can you tell us if you are challenging that
Date:    Feb 14 14:00
Author:   The Chad

Yes, I am challenging it.
Read the latest story at:
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_11701255


Subject:    It's more than your education, Chad. . .
Date:    Feb 15 00:52
Author:   JoAnn

In a wider sense, look at the whole picture of untrained clergy: I have personally known bishops who were barbers, air-conditioning repair guys, military officers, U.S. Fish & Wildlife workers, university professors, and one who was a physicist.

They ranged from run-of-the-mill to brilliant, but they were NOT trained in dealing with relationship problems, substance-abuse problems, mental-health issues, financial planning, or any of the other myriad things that bishops "counsel" people about. They may have meant well, but they were in over their heads in many of these instances.

Since leaving the church, and learning more about how REAL clergy is trained, I feel more and more appalled at what bishops, in their vast ignorance, take upon themselves when they try to "counsel" people who have problems that the bishop cannot possibly comprehend.

They can - and DO - cause irreparable damage with their irresponsible "counsel."
Good luck, Chad.


Subject:    I hope you win your fight with TSCC... :-D
Date:    Feb 15 04:34
Author:   FreeRose

this is totally incredible! All your hard work and $ paid to THEM. Doesn't this just make you want to flee ALL religion. I mean, I've always heard the phase, "In the world but not of it" BUT seems to me it is better to be out of organized religion. They have too many "rules" that can be broken and are too controlling in peoples lives. Those who are "in the world" are only governed by the laws of the land and not some made up doctrinal crap.

I wish you success!


Subject:    Chad, good luck with your appeal...
Date:    Feb 15 04:50
Author:   Michael [email protected]

I think the whole thing is ridiculous. I thought your calendar idea was great and there was no nudity involved. What I don't understand is if they didn't punish any of the guys who posed, why did they punish you? Was it just because your bishop is an ass?

I grew up in Utah County and thought about going to YBU. I even went over and got an application. When I read their code of conduct and that you had to have an endorsement from your bishop in order to attend I tore the application up into tiny pieces and threw it away and went to UVU and then the U of U instead.

Good luck on your appeal. I don't know how an accredited university can withhold your degree after you've complete all of the requirements. If they deny your appeal, maybe you should go after their accreditation.


Subject:    Hmm, re friend ...
Date:    Feb 15 06:28
Author:   Mårv Fråndsæn [email protected]

How did he get into BYU law school after having been inactive for 10 years?
How did he maintain an eccesiastical endorsement while inactive?

As for the mechanic from Pleasanton - yup, that is how it works. Mormonism is structured to pull the bennies at any time without recourse if you displease a 'priesthood' leader for any reason. Obedience is the first law, no?


Subject:    Re: YOUR EDUCATION IS IN THE HANDS OF A CAR MECHANIC
Date:    Feb 15 11:05
Author:   anon4reply

I had an interesting conversation about BYU with a professor who teaches at the OTHER Utah Valley institution of higher education.

He is a total TBM but has refused several offers to teach at BYU for more money. Why? Because what is true for students it is true for faculty (and non-faculty staff). If your bishop decides you are unworthy and pulls your TR you could lose your job. But more than that, anyone one can make an annonymous accusation which will put your teaching, life, 'worthiness' under scrutiny. You could end up losing your job over something that wasn't even true (he says he knows several people that happened to). As I said, he is a total TBM but unwilling to put his livelihood at the mercy of some jerk (even a fellow TBM jerk).

Anyone thinking about attending BYU and who values academic freedom should first read 'The Lord's University' by the former editor of BYU's student paper.

http://www.signaturebooks.com/lords.htm


Subject:    Why did I not have a say?
Date:    Feb 15 13:45
Author:   angry taxpayer

I spend a lot of money in every paycheck for taxes. One of the investments that my American federal government makes is in giving college students like you some Pell Grants. And now because you don't have a degree your future jobs/careers that I've invested in are going to get outsourced overseas. Your potential earnings will be less and thus you will be paying less taxes and us taxpayers will NOT be getting a return on investment. All this because of some religious decision made by a Mormon Stake President. This Stake President certainly did not act ignorantly as every Stake President in the western USA is quite familiar with the ecclesiastical consequences upon status at BYU. I'm going to write my Senators and the office in the US Department of Education about your story. I'm going to inquire out why they're giving taxpayer money for such a program when some religious leader can undo it anytime they want.

Note to Chad: Your Stake President in Vegas obviously knew that you were in BYU standing and he knew the consequences of what would and could happen to you if he took out a vendetta on you. I'd strongly suggest that you have a legal case against him personally.

In the meantime I'd make sure you list your Bachelor's degree on your resume. Just add the words "Earned August 2008". Whenever a new employer begins the background investigation you could attach an explanation letter/affidavit that you completed all coursework/requirements to earn the degree. However the LDS church decided to illegally punish you and you are seeking legal redress.

My children are young teenagers and getting some pressure from LDS relatives to consider BYU. Your story specifically is being used by me to warn my kids that (a) I will NOT provide any financial support for them going to BYU unless an agreement is made up front with BYU signing on to protecting their rights, (b) I've warned them that if they ever decide to start believing in Joseph Smith and get baptized and then go to BYU then they better not change their mind or say anything negative about the church, Joseph Smith, etc. until they are safely OUT of BYU. My kids are quite sympathetic with your story and they're certainly thinking that they don't want to have to go to college for years, take lots of tests, do lots of homework and have it all be for nothing if they ever say something negative about Joseph Smith or the Mormon church.


Subject:    Contact Info - US Department of Education
Date:    Feb 15 13:56
Author:   angry taxpayer

Chad,
Your particular case could really use some assistance through involvement of the federal government. That's because its a matter where an ecclesiastical decision was made to overturn the intent of the federal taxpayers who funded your Pell Grant, lets BYU students work on-campus without paying Social Security & Medicare and gives other subsidies. All this the taxpayers do to help people get degrees. The law never intended for it to be a weapon to use against someone for publishing a calendar that their ecclesiastical leader didn't like.

To be effective what's needed first is to get some talking points put together. What specifically could be said to the Education department people? What specifically could be said to our Congressional representatives? Not only will this help you Chad. But it'll help many others in the same boat with this abusive church.

http://www.ed.gov/programs/fpg/contacts.html

Telephone (800) 433-3243 or 800 4FED-AID

best of luck,
an angry taxpayer


Subject:    Waiting for good talking points before calling/writing
Date:    Feb 15 14:17
Author:   angry taxpayer

Chad,
I don't feel it would be effective to address your specific situation without (a) more details on your story, (b) some good talking points.

By details I mean your best estimates/recollections on when you got Pell Grants, how much, when you got federally guaranteed student loans, how much, did you work at BYU as a student (i.e. exempt from social security and medicare taxes), etc. It would be also good to know IF anyone represented the government in being involved in the process to deny you your BYU diploma - i.e. first the prerequisite excommunication by the trained BYU ecclesiastical endorsement representative called a Stake President, second the procedures done on the LDS church's BYU campus to follow up and withhold your degree. Now of course you may decide not to share this publicly and I respect that. But with all things considered such answers would be quite useful for talking points.

I'd like to suggest a new thread for Talking Points.


Subject:    Use the Federal Register effectively to find contacts
Date:    Feb 15 14:18
Author:   angry taxpayer

A little known secret in the federal government is that one of the best ways to find help in the federal bureaucracy is to look of contact info in the Federal Register. That's the publication where all the federal agencies have to publish notices, proposed rules, final rules, etc. as required by law. See http://www.ed.gov/news/fedregister/index.html for contact info of regulation rulewriters who have the inside track on process/procedure in the US Education Department of the federal government. Mine this information for contacts who you can make inquiries to get some answers and put some heat on BYU for violating church/state separation principles. Here's some sample contact info I gleaned:

Ellen Campbell
U.S. Department of Education
400 Maryland Avenue, SW., room 6W243
Washington, DC 20202-8250
Telephone: (202) 260-3887

John J. Porter, Director, Center for
Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, Office of the Secretary, U.S.
Department of Education, 555 New Jersey Avenue, NW., Suite 410,
Washington, DC 20208-8300. Telephone: (202) 219-1741.
Fax: (202) 208-1689

Frances Moran, U.S. Department of
Education, 400 Maryland Avenue, SW., room 6W243
Washington, DC 20202-8250.
Telephone: (202) 260-3887.

Margo K. Anderson, U.S. Department of
Education, 400 Maryland Avenue, SW., room 4W311, Washington, DC 20202-
5910. Telephone: (202) 205-3010 or by e-mail: [email protected]

For information related to the IBR
plan, Pamela Moran or John Kolotos. Telephone: (202) 502-7732 or (202)
502-7762 or via the Internet at: [email protected] or
[email protected]. For information related to the Public Service Loan
Forgiveness Program, Nikki Harris. Telephone: (202) 219-7050 or via the
Internet at: [email protected]. For information related to the
economic hardship deferment, the military service deferment, or the
post-active duty student deferment, Vanessa Freeman. Telephone: (202)
502-7523 or via the Internet at: Vanessa [email protected]. For
information related to not-for-profit loan holders, Pamela Moran.
Telephone: (202) 502-7732 or via the Internet at: [email protected]

Shelley Shepherd, Office of Inspector
General, U.S. Department of Education, 400 Maryland Avenue, SW., room
8166, Washington, DC 20202-5920. Telephone: (202) 245-7077.

For information related to
Simplification of the Deferment Process, Loan Counseling for Graduate
or Professional Student PLUS Loan Borrowers, Mandatory Assignment of
Defaulted Perkins Loans, Reasonable Collection Costs, and Child or
Family Service Cancellation, Brian Smith. Telephone: (202) 502-7551 or
via Internet: [email protected].

Mr. Brian Smith, U.S. Department of
Education, 1990 K Street, NW., 8th Floor, Washington, DC 20006.
Telephone: (202) 502-7551 or via the Internet at: [email protected].

Michelle Belton, U.S. Department of
Education, 1990 K Street, NW., room 8031, Washington, DC 20006-8502.
Telephone: (202) 502-7821 or via the Internet at:
[email protected]

Christine M. Rose, U.S. Department of
Education, 400 Maryland Avenue, SW., room 6C122, Washington, DC 20202-
2110. Telephone: (202) 401-6700.

Subject:    I thank God everyday I didn't get into BYULaw. Catastrophe averted
Date:    Feb 15 14:07
Author:   Nor Cal Law Student [email protected]

Scary creepy scary oh my god
Major kudos and props Chad, you da man
I would be suicidal at BYULaw right now, like North Korea

All I would say is I sure hope you can find the right legal advice, Chad. I wish I could help.

Just remember, many have gone before, both student and professors, and tried to battle the Juggernaut, and very very few have prevailed. Sorry to be grim. Remember they have had a long time of practice in devising and refining legal theories to defend what they do.