Näin sanoivat antit silloin näin sanovat he tänäänkin, että välimeren maissa ei koskaan ole ollut metalilevulle kirjoitettuja kirjoja.... no mitä nyt niitä kuolleen meren kääröjä...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1371290/70-metal-books-Jordan-cave-change-view-Biblical-history.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1371290/70-metal-books-Jordan-cave-change-view-Biblical-history.html
Vastaukset 18
Vanhimmat
Jaa, kuka on sanonut mitä ja milloin?
Kuolleen Meren kääröt eivät olleet metallia... Nuo kuvissa olevat ovat. Noista on kovin pitkä matka Smithin tosi kevyisiin satulevyihin, jotka ENKELI otti pois.
Minäkään en ymmärrä miksi ne kultalevyt piti luovuttaa takaisin enkelille?
Miksi Kirkko ei olisi voinut säilyttää niitä?
Jos ei Joseph Smithin aikana vielä kukaan (ei edes Joseph - hänhän sai käännöksen ilmoituksen kautta näkykivien avulla) osannut lukea niitä niin eikö niitä olisi voinut säilyttää näihin aikoihin asti jolloin kielten- ja muinaisten kansojen tutkimus on kehittynyt?
Ai jaa kupari ei ole metalli ok...
Kyllä muuten kupari on metallia. Sinulla on jälleen väärää tietoa.
Kuolleen meren kääröt on kirjoitettu nahka- ja papyruskääröihin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Scroll
http://www.templestudy.com/2011/04/07/authentic-ancient-metal-plates/#more-2427
...ja taas yrität hehkuttaa näillä väärennöksillä ihan niinkuin viime keväänäkin, uskomatonta.
Lainauksia aihetta käsittelevältä wikisivulta...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Lead_Codices
"Several scholars have pronounced them fakes."
..ja tapaukseen liittyvistä "viimeaikaisista" tapahtumista viimeisenä mm.
"Also on April 11, Live Science reported that the letter forms were a mixture of old Aramaic and much younger scripts, and that the mixture indicated a modern forgery."
..niin eikä pidä unohtaa, että vastaavia metallilevyjä voi wikin mukana löytää lähi-idän basaareista kunhan jaksaa tarpeeksi etsiä.
No ei taida kaikki olla sitä mieltä kuin sinä, kun Englantilainen lehti niistä kirjottaa. Onhan metallilevykirjoista paljon muitakin löytöjä, joten se asia on joka tapauksessa selvä.
Niinku missä? Voit toki väittää, että sellaisia kirjoja on ja vieläpä siinä käyttötarkoituksessa kuin MK, mutta tuollaiset väitteet kaipaavat näyttöjä. Pelkästään se, että tosi uskovainen mormoni niin sanoo, ei tee asiasta totuutta.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Scroll
http://www.templestudy.com/2011/04/07/authentic-ancient-metal-plates/#more-2427
No just... vatii aika luovaa tulkintaa vetää näistä jotain yhtäläisyyksiä MK:n väittettyihin kultalevyihin.
Copper Scroll: "Unlike the others, it is not a literary work, but a list of locations at which various items of gold and silver are buried or hidden."
Siis jonkinlainen kartta mistä löytyy metallia, ei mitään tekemistä uskonnollisten tekstien kanssa.
Toinen linkittämäsi sivusto näyttää vetoavan siihen, että kun jossain muuallakin on ollut metallilevyjä, niin Jerusalemissakin on täytynyt olla. Tieto näistä metallilevyistä on kyllä mielenkiintoinen, mutta niillä ei ole mitään tekemistä MK:n tai edes Lähi-Idän kulttuurien kanssa. Sivusto, joka esittää tällaisia argumentteja syyllistyy argumentointivirheeseen: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virheellinen_analogia
Totta vai huijausta:
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ulkomaat/Kristinuskoa mahdollisesti mullistavasta löydöstä kiista/art-1288379449452.html?ref=lk_is_ul_1
Google -haulla "metallikirjat" saa yhtä toista muutakin esille.
Huijausta.
http://danielomcclellan.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/peter-thonemann-on-the-lead-codices/
"However, this text corresponds precisely to line 2 of the Greek text of a bilingual Aramaic/Greek inscription published by J.T. Milik, Syria 35 (1958) 243-6 no.6 (SEG 20, 494), and republished in P.-L. Gatier, Inscriptions grecques et latines de Syrie XXI: Inscriptions de la Jordanie, 2: Region centrale (Paris 1986), no.118. That inscription reads, in its entirety, as follows,
1 Σελαμαν χρηστὲ καὶ
2 ἄλυπε χαῖρε, Ἀβγαρ ὁ καὶ Εἰσίων
3 Μονοαθου υἱὸς υἱῷ τειμίῳ τὸ μνῆμα
4 ἐποίησεν ἔτους τρίτου ἐπαρχείας"
’For Selaman, excellent and harmless man, farewell! Abgar, also known as Eision, son of Monoathos, constructed this tomb for his excellent son (i.e. Selaman), in the third year of the province’.
This is a stone tombstone from Madaba in Jordan, precisely dated to AD 108/9, on display in the Archaeological Museum in Amman.
Suomeksi lyhennettynä: Levyiltä löytyy identtistä tekstiä, joka on kopioitu Ammanin arkeologisessa museossa näytillä olevasta hautakivestä.
huijausta
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article7173961.ece
"One can hardly blame the newspapers: no editor could reasonably be expected to resist the combination of Jesus, the Kabbalah, mysterious death threats and a secret code. But it is a bit depressing that no one thought to consult any one of the dozens of British specialists in the field. As the Jewish Chronicle made clear when it originally reported on the find back in early March, those professional scholars who have had sight of these objects have dismissed them as obvious fakes. There are various reasons why we bother to fund research in the arts and humanities and this episode could have been one of them. "
Taitaa olla Los Lunasin kiven tyyppinen tapaus, jota mormonit hehkuttivat aikansa. Jotkut Nenadat taitavat hehkuttaa vieläkin...
Niin tosiaan ei tullut katsottua kluvia ovat niitä joista jo kerran olemme täällä puhuneet. Tiedemiehet oavt niistä eri mieltä. Barker sanoo että ovat väärennöksiä kuten useimmat LDS tutkijatkin.
Lisää metallikirjoja:
Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1929, p.14
A few days ago I received a letter from Dr. John A. Widtsoe who at present presides over the European mission. Among other things he says:
"Last fall as I was leaving London I spent an hour in the British museum almost at random. I entered the large room devoted to oriental manuscripts. I noticed at once in the first case to the right a series of very fine silver plates, perhaps three inches wide and eight inches long, held together by a silver ring. The plates were beautifully engraved with characters which the legend said gave Buddha's first sermon. In the next case was a sheet of extremely thin gold likewise engraved on both sides, which according to the legend was a letter from one ruler to another."
"Copper and gold plates were early and often used" in India. Thomas W. Rhys Davids, Buddhist India: 123-4
references to copper plates contained in Indian Historical Quarterly: 2 (1926): 77, 313; 3 (1927): 89; 4 (1928): 31, 637, 425, 203; 6 (1930): 45, 60; 8 (1932): 305; 9: 282, 943; 10: 54, 100, 473; 11(1935): 300, 611; passim. cf. Epigraphica Indica, passim; JRAS;
Taxila silver plate inscription; found in chapel near a stupa (ca 50 AD); one foot below floor, steatite vessel with
silver vase inside; with silver scroll in vase and gold casket with relics in vase; heavy stone placed over deposit; in Sten Konow, 'Taxila Inscription of the year 136', in Epigraphica Indica xiv (1917-8): 284-295
Taxila gold plate inscription: 'Do not fear....The mind (cittam) that is for a long time saturated/invigorated/enlivened
by faith (saddhaparibhavitam), by morality, learning, renunciation and wisdom (sila, suta, caga, panna), goes upwards, goes to distinction (uddhagami, visesagami)' from the Sutta Nikaya 5.369-70;
cf. Louis de laValle Poussin, L'Abhidharmakosa 1.971; II 95, note 1;
cf. Franklin Edgerton, 'The Hour of Death,' Annals of the Bandarkar Oriental Research Institute 8 (1927): 225, 227; referred to in Gregory Schopen, 'On the Buddha and his Bones,' JAOS 108 (1988): 532
cf. Richard Salomen, 'The Inscription of Senavarma, King of Odi,' Indo-Iranian Journal 29 (1986): 261-93;
cf. JRAS 1980;
BEFEO 1982. single gold leaf from Taxila, 14 lines of 100-132 aksaras [letters] each 'which seems improbable'; dated to first half of first century AD. 'The most serious problems in reading arise not from the scribe's mistakes, but from the damage done to the gold leaf where it was folded.'
Mo-tzu (300 BC): 'How do we know that ancient sages practiced /Tao = righteousness/? I was not alive at their time or heard their voices or saw their faces; I know it by what they wrote on bamboo and silk, inscribed on metal and stone, carved on vessels to pass down to their descendants of future generations.' 14.49, in A. C. Graham, Disputers of the Tao: Philosophical Argument in Ancient China (1991): 52
"Buddhist tradition records that the Canon was inscribed on sheets of gold in Ceylon in 88 BC....None of these has survived." Jeremiah P. Losty, The Art of the Book in India (1982): 9-10
Losty describes and shows a photo of a treaty between Zamorins of Calicut and the Dutch East India Company of 1691, on a gold strip 2.03m long; Losty, Art of the Book in India: 10
"A treaty between the King of Ava and the Portuguese was written on a leaf or plate of gold enclosed in an ivory box." A. C. Burnell, Elements of South Indian Paleography, 93, note 1
The largest copper plate so far found is 55 plates weighing 216 pounds, over 2500 lines, dated 1024 AD. Losty, The Art of the Book in India: 10 (copper plates are very common in India)
The Buddha's teachings were inscribed on gold plates; CAF Rhys Davids, Psalms of the Brethren: 90 ff., and note 1
Prajnaparamita sutra (Buddhist Mahayana text) written on gold plates and placed in a box in a stupa (large burial mounds), in Edward Conze, translator, The Perfection of Wisdom in Eight Thousand lines and its verse Summary (Calif. 1973): 288
D.C. Sircar, Select Inscriptions Bearing on Indian History and Civilization, Vol. I (1965): 8: gold tablet of Darius,
cf. JAOS 51: 229-30;
JRAS (1926): 433-6;
S. Sen, Old Persian Inscriptions, 114;
Jatkuu
Sircar, Select Inscriptions: 493-5: gold plate in Burma, 6th century AD;
cf. Epigraphica Indica 5: 101
King of Wu found a writing on golden tablets but could not read it. He sent it to Confucius. It was a text of Ling Pao, given by Celestial Officials to the early sage. It dealt with the method of obtaining a long life. JAOS 106 (1986): 72 ff.
woman writes letter to her lover on gold plates (pattrikama likhya), in Dandin, Dasakumaracaritam 35 (Monier Williams, Sanskrit English Dictionary 581b: says this term can refer to gold plate.)
inscribed with invitations to his annaprasana ceremony (first feeding of a newborn) by Gangagovinda Simha, for his
grandson, ca. 1800 AD. in Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal 8 (1966): 243
SnA 1.228, on Alavaka Sutta: 8 questions written during Kassapa Buddha's time; to see if Gotama (the historical Buddha) would give the same answers.
SnA 2.575 ff., on Katthavahana. King writes dhamma (Buddhist doctrines) for a friend, as a gift. Enclosed in many caskets.
Buddhist monk Bimbisara sent king Tissa the paticcasamuppada text on a gold plate. Tissa renounced his kingdom and went to the Buddha. Thag 97; ThagA 1.199
Bimbisara sent Pukkhasati a gold plate inscribed with the Satipatthana, the 8 fold path, 37 factors of enlightenment, the importance of taking faith in the Buddha, the dharma and the sangha (community). Pukkhasati was converted. MA 2.979 ff.
A translation of the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (S 5.420) 'foundation of the kingdom of Righteousness' on a silver plate; in TW Rhys Davids, Buddhist Suttas (Harvard Oriental Series): 139
"A book of 24 thick golden leaves bound together by a copper wire was found from the Dhamdoha tank and melted down.' NK Bhattasali, Iconography of Buddhist and Brahmanical Sculptures in the Dacca Museum, Dacca (1929): x
"The Buddhists mention here and there the writing, not only of documents, but also of verses and maxims, on gold plates. A gold plate with a votive inscription has also been preserved to us." Morice Winternitz, History of Indian Literature I (1962): 33
The king of Ceylon in the tenth century AD had the Dhamma samgani engraved, and taken to vihara (temple) where he worshiped it. Winternitz, History of Indian Literature II: 167, quoted in CAF Rhys Davids, Buddhist Manual of Psychology and Ethics: xxv
Colonel Sykes, 'Account of some Golden Relics discovered at Rangoon....' Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 17 (1860): 298-308: found under floor of temple; 'in pure massive gold' (298); with burnt bones of a human being; Pali text (early Buddhist), but in modern characters (308); 'gold leaf scroll;' 'golden scroll' (299); 'inscription on the gold band' (302); offerings made to aid release and attainment of nibbana (nirvana); places trust 'in the excellent god' (i.e. Buddha); 'May my wife be together with me after I become a Buddha.' (303)
Jambuka inscribed the Buddhist dharma on a gold plate; Tesakuma Jataka (#521) (5.109-25; cf. 1.177; 6.94)
Chinese Buddhist monk Hieun Tsiang (600AD) says King Kaniska (100AD) caused sacred scriptures to be engraved on sheets of copper, and enclosed in a stone box in a stupa, in George Buhler, Indian Paleography: 115; also in Edward Thomas, The History of Buddhist Thought: 175; and in TW Rhys Davids, Buddhism (1887): 239; such was found in a stupa erected at site of the Buddha's death, in George Malalasekhera, Dictionary of Pali Proper Names 1: 655 (from CAGI 1.714)
Buddhist jataka tales (of the Buddha's previous lives) refer to inscriptions of important family records of wealthy merchants, royal edicts, poetic verses and moral maxims, on gold plates (suvannapatta: Jat 4.7; SnA 228, 578; DhA 4.89), in Ruru jataka; Kurudhamma jataka; Tesakumjataka; in Pandey, Indian Paleography: 78
Buddhist monk Buddhaghosa of Sri Lanka (Ceylon: 5th century AD translator) gives a description of a stupa built by and during reign of King Ajatasatru (contemporary of the historical Buddha; 500 BC) for hoarding relics. Included was a 'prophecy inscribed on a gold plate to the effect that King Asoka (250 BC) would in time to come spread these relics far and wide.' from the Sumangala Vilasini, in B.M. Barua, 'Stupa and Tomb,' in Indian Historical Quarterly 2 (1926): 26
Löit taas kirveesi (Los Lunasin) kiveen. Tai sitten metalliin. Tylsyi joka tapauksessa.