Koraanin erehtyväisyys nro2!

kuin myös sen että pidettäkööt keskustelu täällä.

Kuten huomasit copy and pastesin vain englannin
kieliset koraanin jakeet.

"2 Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the
earth in TWO Days
And do ye join equals with Him? He is the
Lord of (all) the Worlds.

He set on the (earth), mountains standing
firm, high above it,
and bestowed blessings on the earth, and
measure therein all things
4 to give them nourishment in due proportion,
in FOUR Days
in accordance with (the needs of) those who
seek (Sustenance).

Moreover He comprehended in His design the
sky,
and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it
and to the earth:
"Come ye together, willingly or
unwillingly."
They said: "We do come (together), in
willing obedience."

2 So He completed them as seven firmaments in
TWO Days,
and He assigned to each heaven its duty and
command.
And We adorned the lower heaven with lights,
and (provided it) with guard.
Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in
Might, Full of Knowledge.
(eli kahdeksan päivää)
Sura41:9-12
ELi tämän Yosuf Alin tulkinnan mukaan on taas 8
päivää. Mikä on räikeässä ristiriidassa tuon
kuuden päivän, kera. Tämä selvisi muuten ihan
yhteen laskulla.

EclipsE kirjoitti:

"2 Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the
earth in TWO Days
And do ye join equals with Him? He is the
Lord of (all) the Worlds.

He set on the (earth), mountains standing
firm, high above it,
and bestowed blessings on the earth, and
measure therein all things
4 to give them nourishment in due proportion,
in FOUR Days
in accordance with (the needs of) those who
seek (Sustenance).

Moreover He comprehended in His design the
sky,
and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it
and to the earth:
"Come ye together, willingly or
unwillingly."
They said: "We do come (together), in
willing obedience."

2 So He completed them as seven firmaments in
TWO Days,
and He assigned to each heaven its duty and
command.
And We adorned the lower heaven with lights,
and (provided it) with guard.
Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in
Might, Full of Knowledge.
(eli kahdeksan päivää)
Sura41:9-12
ELi tämän Yosuf Alin tulkinnan mukaan on taas 8
päivää. Mikä on räikeässä ristiriidassa tuon
kuuden päivän, kera. Tämä selvisi muuten ihan
yhteen laskulla.

Eclipse, miksi haluat mennä tähän?

They were six. The verses of 41:9-12 speak of
overlapping actions in spans of four and two days
each. The adverbs are the keys to understanding
this. The verses of 11 and 12 use the
adverbs "thummah" and "fa" which imply
consecutiveness of action. Neither of these two,
however, are used in verse 10 (the only one which
mentions four days) which instead uses the
adverb "wa" implying parallel, or "overlapping"
actions. In other words, the grammar tells us
that the four days mentioned in 10 are a
continuation of the two mentioned in verse 9. The
four days of "measuring the earth's sustenance"
refers to the two days of the creation of the
earth in addition to the two days of
the "spreading out of the earth's features" (see
next question).


For example, the world renown track and fielder
Carl Lewis might say "I am now 32 years old. I
started elementary school when I was 6, then I
spent 12 years studying for my high-school
diploma and I spent 24 years training to be the
world's best long-jumper. Then I settled down and
have spent the last two years taking care of my
family." Does this mean that he was 18 years old
when he started training for the long jump? Did
he continue till he was 42 years old? If we add 6
12 24 2 we get 44. How then can he be "32
years old" now?. To understand this we need to
notice that he did not say that he started
training when he was eighteen. He did not
say "then" I trained for 24 years. We now realize
that he started training at the same time he
started elementary school, when he was 6. He went
to school and trained for track and field at the
same time. After he graduated from high-school he
continued to train for 12 more years. They
were "overlapping" actions.


Now, if someone wishes to claim that Carl Lewis'
statement is contradictory since he says that he
is 32 years old but "the detailed description of
the breakdown of the years" works out to 44
years, and that this is a "contradiction," then
that is their choice.

Taha Islam kirjoitti:

Eclipse, miksi haluat mennä tähän?

They were six. The verses of 41:9-12 speak of
overlapping actions in spans of four and two days
each. The adverbs are the keys to understanding
this. The verses of 11 and 12 use the
adverbs "thummah" and "fa" which imply
consecutiveness of action. Neither of these two,
however, are used in verse 10 (the only one which
mentions four days) which instead uses the
adverb "wa" implying parallel, or "overlapping"
actions. In other words, the grammar tells us
that the four days mentioned in 10 are a
continuation of the two mentioned in verse 9. The
four days of "measuring the earth's sustenance"
refers to the two days of the creation of the
earth in addition to the two days of
the "spreading out of the earth's features" (see
next question).


For example, the world renown track and fielder
Carl Lewis might say "I am now 32 years old. I
started elementary school when I was 6, then I
spent 12 years studying for my high-school
diploma and I spent 24 years training to be the
world's best long-jumper. Then I settled down and
have spent the last two years taking care of my
family." Does this mean that he was 18 years old
when he started training for the long jump? Did
he continue till he was 42 years old? If we add 6
12 24 2 we get 44. How then can he be "32
years old" now?. To understand this we need to
notice that he did not say that he started
training when he was eighteen. He did not
say "then" I trained for 24 years. We now realize
that he started training at the same time he
started elementary school, when he was 6. He went
to school and trained for track and field at the
same time. After he graduated from high-school he
continued to train for 12 more years. They
were "overlapping" actions.


Now, if someone wishes to claim that Carl Lewis'
statement is contradictory since he says that he
is 32 years old but "the detailed description of
the breakdown of the years" works out to 44
years, and that this is a "contradiction," then
that is their choice.

mutta otappa arvon Said (kts. kylmä rinki)
huomioon että se mitä copy and pastesin oli
koraanista! SInä taas copy and pastesit
selityksen, noh itsepähän kerjäsit up yours baby,
tässä tuohon "thummah" sanaan viittia juttuja:I
know that Muslims have to come up with some
response to this. I feel it is pretty weak. If
normal language has any definite meaning then my
interpretation is rather straight forward. Does
Arabic not have words to express something
like "at the same time"? The above harmonization
is extremely forced. Does he really want to read
Sura 2:29 as


He it is Who hath created for you all that is on
earth.
Moreover (and at the same time as creating the
earth and everything on it) He turned to the
heaven, and made them into seven heavens.
You decide for yourself whether turning to
together with then or with moreover makes a
better translation. Both in Surah 41 and here the
natural interpretation seems to be the one I
presented. Harmonization with the "six day
creation verses" does force this artificial
construction. It is an ad hoc argument and not
convincing in my eyes. If the creation of the
heavens is indeed supposedly concurrent then the
verb "turning to" is an extremly odd choice of
words.

Maybe I am willing to trade this contradiction
for the admission that the Qur'an is indeed very
unclear and quite hard to understand ...
contradicting the statement that it is in clear
Arabic.

In regard to the remark on Surah 102: We find
there a repetition of the same statement several
times, making it again and again, and that means
it is said several times one after the other. It
is the sequence of utterance. The event refered
to is one and the same, that is true, but
the "thumma" is justified nevertheless because it
structures a sequence. And it still is nowhere
used in connection to several parallel events.
Here it is only one event, refered to in a
sequence of repetitions, one coming after the
other.

Arabic dictionary entry on thumma.

In regard to "parting the earth and the heavens"
as proof for the concurrent creation, that is
argument from silence. is "parting" the same as
creating, forming and filling? It doesn't seem
so. In Sura 41 again, as discussed above, there
is first the creation of the earth and
subsequently the filling of the earth as seen in
41:9 and 10. So maybe Allah first "parted" them,
then did all his forming and filling work on the
earth, and then does do the details of forming
and filling on the heavens. But this is not
indicated anywhere to be concurrent. How long
does "parting" take? And still you have not
explained why all the major commentators include
the first two days with the next four, and not as
you do the first two concurrent with the last
two. Were they all not able to understand the
Arabic properly? Did they maybe indeed read
thumma to mean "then" and this was not an option
for them?

Actually it is seemingly getting worse all the
time. Thanks for pointing out this verse. I
hadn't seen that before. Look again at these two
verses 41:11 & 21:30 and see how a new
contradiction arises before our very eyes.