Osittainen mea culpa, sillä ilmeisestikin erehdyin kummaassa R.Franzin kirjassa asiasta kerrottiin. Muistini mukaan hän kertoi siitä kirjasan "Crisis of Conscience", mutta oheisen linkin sivun puolivälissä ( keltainen ruutu ) mainitsemani tapahtumat yksilöidään kerotun hänen toisessa kirjasaan "In Search Of Christian Freedom", jonka ole myös osittain lukenut.
In Search Of Christian Freedom.
FORMER JW GOVERNING BODY MEMBER RAY FRANZ EXPOSES WATCHTOWER SPYING OR STALKING WHICH RESULTED IN CONVICTIONS
Raymond Franz is a former Governing Body member of the Watchtower Society over Jehovah's Witnesses whom Watchtower disfellowshipped in the wake of discovering his sentiments for the Bible and Christ. He has exposed Watchtower's spying or stalking on pages 380-383 of the second edition (2007) of his book In Search Of Christian Freedom.
In 1986 Watchtower's branch office in Athens, Greece, disfellowshipped over one hundred JWs who gave any signs of disagreeing with Watchtower teachings and policies. Although out of the Watchtower, some of the ExJWs decided to meet and continue reading and discussing the Bible in private homes.
As later proved by convictions in court, Greece's Watchtower branch office decided to stalk the ExJWs. On April 6, 1987, about 50 people who were mostly ExJW Christians at the home of Nick and Eftihia Bozartzis. From a balcony Nick spotted two men watching the house so he went down to speak with them, one of whom he knew to be a JW. They ran off. Shortly three of the 50 were disfellowshipped.
On April 9 the ExJWs fellowship or house-church was going to meet at the home of Voula Kalokerinou but the meeting had been canceled as the ExJWs planned instead to meet to celebrate the Memorial or Last Supper on April 11. Voula spotted five people in a car stationed across from her house that evening and the next.
On April 11, the fellowship gathered to commemorate the Lord's last meal or supper at Voula's house. She saw an unknown car on one corner and a van on the other corner. The back window of the van was covered with paper except for a round circle in the center. The men in the car got out and went over to talk to the men in the van several times.
Voula asked a person meeting in her home to go see what was going on. When he came toward the car, it sped away. He went around the back of the van and peered through the uncovered circular area inside of which were video camera equipment used by Watchtower-appointed Elder Nikolas Antoniou and Watchtower branch staff Elder Dimetre Zerdes.
Other people from Voula's house gathered. A policeman from the nearby Italian Embassy came. The JW Elders drove off to a park, started unloading their video equipment but were arrested by police for invasion of privacy. The Elders lied before a district attorney that they were only there to film a relative of Dimetre Zerdes. In reality his cousin Eftihia Bozartzis had disassociated herself from JWs two years before which, due to Watchtower's shunning policy, meant he was to have nothing to do with her.
The District Attorney named Kontaxis said at the trial that Watchtower believes it is "God's channel, creates tremendous dependency on its members, thus (they) are directed to do everything to threaten and trample all that we call human rights." The confiscated film showed zoom shots of people entering the house and being on the balcony, Eftihia Bozartzis not even in the film.
The next year, Watchtower's magazine called Awake! blasted Greece's Orthodox Church for getting a stadium in Greece to cancel an assembly for JWs there. This may have been to make word of what Watchtower representatives' criminal conduct in Greece seem less believable to JWs when they finally might hear of it.
Franz notes "To this day, in all countries, any persons among Jehovah's Witnesses who find they cannot conscientiously support fully the organization's teachings or practices live in a climate of fear, felling they must constantly be on guard as to what they say, what they do, what they read, with whom they associate, from whom they receive letters, not feeling any sense of freedom even when among personal friends or close relatives if these are also Witnesses."
Franz also noted that to keep Watchtowerites from discovering them and destroying their ties to JW family and friends, some JWs who have contacted him have felt it necessary to use a different name, use a special post office box etc. Watchtower says disagreeing JWs are "free" to leave; hiding that fact that when people do Watchtower destroys their families and sometimes its Elders, including as said, branch staff, have continued to spy on, stalk or harass those who have left.
- http://christianwitnesses.com/id201.html
.
In Search Of Christian Freedom.
FORMER JW GOVERNING BODY MEMBER RAY FRANZ EXPOSES WATCHTOWER SPYING OR STALKING WHICH RESULTED IN CONVICTIONS
Raymond Franz is a former Governing Body member of the Watchtower Society over Jehovah's Witnesses whom Watchtower disfellowshipped in the wake of discovering his sentiments for the Bible and Christ. He has exposed Watchtower's spying or stalking on pages 380-383 of the second edition (2007) of his book In Search Of Christian Freedom.
In 1986 Watchtower's branch office in Athens, Greece, disfellowshipped over one hundred JWs who gave any signs of disagreeing with Watchtower teachings and policies. Although out of the Watchtower, some of the ExJWs decided to meet and continue reading and discussing the Bible in private homes.
As later proved by convictions in court, Greece's Watchtower branch office decided to stalk the ExJWs. On April 6, 1987, about 50 people who were mostly ExJW Christians at the home of Nick and Eftihia Bozartzis. From a balcony Nick spotted two men watching the house so he went down to speak with them, one of whom he knew to be a JW. They ran off. Shortly three of the 50 were disfellowshipped.
On April 9 the ExJWs fellowship or house-church was going to meet at the home of Voula Kalokerinou but the meeting had been canceled as the ExJWs planned instead to meet to celebrate the Memorial or Last Supper on April 11. Voula spotted five people in a car stationed across from her house that evening and the next.
On April 11, the fellowship gathered to commemorate the Lord's last meal or supper at Voula's house. She saw an unknown car on one corner and a van on the other corner. The back window of the van was covered with paper except for a round circle in the center. The men in the car got out and went over to talk to the men in the van several times.
Voula asked a person meeting in her home to go see what was going on. When he came toward the car, it sped away. He went around the back of the van and peered through the uncovered circular area inside of which were video camera equipment used by Watchtower-appointed Elder Nikolas Antoniou and Watchtower branch staff Elder Dimetre Zerdes.
Other people from Voula's house gathered. A policeman from the nearby Italian Embassy came. The JW Elders drove off to a park, started unloading their video equipment but were arrested by police for invasion of privacy. The Elders lied before a district attorney that they were only there to film a relative of Dimetre Zerdes. In reality his cousin Eftihia Bozartzis had disassociated herself from JWs two years before which, due to Watchtower's shunning policy, meant he was to have nothing to do with her.
The District Attorney named Kontaxis said at the trial that Watchtower believes it is "God's channel, creates tremendous dependency on its members, thus (they) are directed to do everything to threaten and trample all that we call human rights." The confiscated film showed zoom shots of people entering the house and being on the balcony, Eftihia Bozartzis not even in the film.
The next year, Watchtower's magazine called Awake! blasted Greece's Orthodox Church for getting a stadium in Greece to cancel an assembly for JWs there. This may have been to make word of what Watchtower representatives' criminal conduct in Greece seem less believable to JWs when they finally might hear of it.
Franz notes "To this day, in all countries, any persons among Jehovah's Witnesses who find they cannot conscientiously support fully the organization's teachings or practices live in a climate of fear, felling they must constantly be on guard as to what they say, what they do, what they read, with whom they associate, from whom they receive letters, not feeling any sense of freedom even when among personal friends or close relatives if these are also Witnesses."
Franz also noted that to keep Watchtowerites from discovering them and destroying their ties to JW family and friends, some JWs who have contacted him have felt it necessary to use a different name, use a special post office box etc. Watchtower says disagreeing JWs are "free" to leave; hiding that fact that when people do Watchtower destroys their families and sometimes its Elders, including as said, branch staff, have continued to spy on, stalk or harass those who have left.
- http://christianwitnesses.com/id201.html
.
Vastaukset 4
Vanhimmat
-
Mainitsemani tapahtuma on siis kerrottu R.Franzin kijassa "In Search Of Christian Freedom" sivuilla 380-383 the second edition (2007 .
-
"Osittainen mea culpa, sillä ilmeisestikin erehdyin kummaassa R.Franzin kirjassa asiasta kerrottiin. "
Jäi hiukan ihmetyttämään miten niin osittain? Tarjoilet olematonta linkkiä, et tarkista asiaa etkä ota vastuuta kirjoituksistasi.
Kyllä se on ihan kokonaan sinun vikasi.
Yritä jatkossa laittaa viitetiedot ettei niitä tarvitse muiden ryhtä hakemaan.
Alun perin kerroin tässä avauksessa olevan ja R.Franzin kirjasta lukemani tapahtuman ulkomuistista tiivistelmänä avaamassani ja nyt jälleen täysin mieleivaltaisesti suljetussa ketjussa "Järjestön ATK-tiimit foorumien seurantaan?" ja manitsin R.Franzin siitä kirjoittaneen kirjassaan. Pointtina asiassa oli tiedon olleen häneltä peräisin.
Kun tarkennuskia pyydettiin linkitin Amazonille R.Franzin kirjaan "CoC", sillä muistelin tapahtuman juuri siinä R.Franzin kirjassa lukeneeni. Kerroin ettei ko. kirja toistaiseksi ole käsilläni ja etten voi sivunumeroita siksi antaa.
Nyttemmin selvisi kuten avaus kertoo R.Franzin kirjoittaneen siitä tuossa mainitussa toisessa kirjassaan. Tietolähde edelleen on R.Franz.
Sain solvauksien siivittämänä mm. syytteitä laittaneeni jo kuolleen henkilön sanomaksi ja kirjoittamaksi sellaista jota hän ei ole kirjoittanut.
Kaikessa tässä on merkille pantavaa miten itse asia ja sen merkitys ei näytä lainkaan kiinnostavan ja merkitsevän mitään, todelliset tapahtumat, todelliset ihmiset kohteena, sekä Vartiotorniseuran menettelytavat seurauksineen lukuisille todistajille joista on tiivistelmä tässä avauksessa.
"Kaikessa tässä on merkille pantavaa miten itse asia ja sen merkitys ei näytä lainkaan kiinnostavan ja merkitsevän mitään, todelliset tapahtumat, todelliset ihmiset kohteena, sekä Vartiotorniseuran menettelytavat seurauksineen lukuisille todistajille joista on tiivistelmä tässä avauksessa. "
Kaikessa tässä on merkitystä sillä, että sinä olet kolme päivää tarjoillut väärää viitettä, kieltäytynyt itse tarkistamasta asiaa ja nyt "yhtäkkiä" muistatkin sen olleen joku muu.
Tarkoitatko tosissasi, että sinulta ei saa perätä viitetietoja, eikä varsinkaan saa vaatia selvistystä vääristä viitetiedoista?
Olen kyllä eri mieltä. Sinä et ole kyseenalaistamisen yläpuolella, ja kuten on todettu, kertomus ei ollut kirjassa jossa väitit sen olleen.
Sinä todellakin laitoit kuolleen miehen kertomukseksi jotain mitä hän ei ollut sanonut, kun kyseessä on CoC.
Keskustelussa on aivan normaalia vaatia viitetietoja, jos et ole niitä valmis antamaan, älä keskustele. Minä olin oikeassa: kertomus EI OLLUT SIINÄ KIRJASSA MISSÄ VÄITIT SEN OLLEEN.
Jos olet antanut tarkoituksella väärää tietoa, se tekee sinusta valehtelijan.