OALC-kielteinen verkkosivu

En ymmärrä.

tullut ilmi ja huomatuksi, mistä jo apostolit puhuivat lopun ajoista varoittaessaan, että silloin "laittomuuden ihminen ilmoitetaan". Nyt on käynyt se sana toteen. Nämä OALC-kirjoituset se todistavat!

Sanot: "Joskus voi olla myös tarvetta keskustella muiden, samassa tilanteessa olevien kanssa varsinkin kun tietää, että lestadiolaisuudesta lähtenyt jättää samalla myös usein ainoan sosiaalisen viitekehyksensä ja ystävänsä."
Täsmälleen näinhän tapahtunut, lestadiolaisittain, lähes pääsääntöisesti - joskin tarkoitushakuisen harhaanjohtavasti - selitetään.
Väittäisinkin - kokemuspohjaisesti - että suurempi osa, kuin jälkeenjätetyssä lestadiolaisuudessa luullaan, jättää VAIN lestadiolaisuuden, ei uskoaan, sosiaalisia kontaktejaan, eikä ystäviään.
Sanoisinkin asian olevan niin päin, että ns. "ystävät" jättävät. Todellisia YSTÄVIÄ ovat ne, jotka eivät koskaan jätä.
Lisäksi on lähtökohtaisesti vähintäänkin mielenkiintoista, että nuo sivut liikeen piirissä koetaan "kielteiseksi".
Minusta ne ovat positiivisessa mielessä "analyyttis-kriittisiä", mikä voidaan nähdä myös voimavarana ja jopa liikettä rakentavana ilmiönä.

Realisti kirjoitti:

Sanot: "Joskus voi olla myös tarvetta keskustella muiden, samassa tilanteessa olevien kanssa varsinkin kun tietää, että lestadiolaisuudesta lähtenyt jättää samalla myös usein ainoan sosiaalisen viitekehyksensä ja ystävänsä."
Täsmälleen näinhän tapahtunut, lestadiolaisittain, lähes pääsääntöisesti - joskin tarkoitushakuisen harhaanjohtavasti - selitetään.
Väittäisinkin - kokemuspohjaisesti - että suurempi osa, kuin jälkeenjätetyssä lestadiolaisuudessa luullaan, jättää VAIN lestadiolaisuuden, ei uskoaan, sosiaalisia kontaktejaan, eikä ystäviään.
Sanoisinkin asian olevan niin päin, että ns. "ystävät" jättävät. Todellisia YSTÄVIÄ ovat ne, jotka eivät koskaan jätä.
Lisäksi on lähtökohtaisesti vähintäänkin mielenkiintoista, että nuo sivut liikeen piirissä koetaan "kielteiseksi".
Minusta ne ovat positiivisessa mielessä "analyyttis-kriittisiä", mikä voidaan nähdä myös voimavarana ja jopa liikettä rakentavana ilmiönä.

Lue lisää

"Väittäisinkin - kokemuspohjaisesti - että suurempi osa, kuin jälkeenjätetyssä lestadiolaisuudessa luullaan, jättää VAIN lestadiolaisuuden, ei uskoaan, sosiaalisia kontaktejaan, eikä ystäviään.
Sanoisinkin asian olevan niin päin, että ns. "ystävät" jättävät. Todellisia YSTÄVIÄ ovat ne, jotka eivät koskaan jätä."

Olen samaa mieltä- tuntien aika monta yhteisöä jättänyttä- useat hakeutuvat toiseen hengelliseen piiriin, eivät siis jätä uskoa Jumalaan, mutta yhteisön. Todellinen ystäväkään ei jätä, vaikka kuuluttaisiin "eri piireihin".

"Minusta ne ovat positiivisessa mielessä "analyyttis-kriittisiä", mikä voidaan nähdä myös voimavarana ja jopa liikettä rakentavana ilmiönä." Näinhän se tosiasiassa onkin, toivoisin vain, että voisimme liikkeen sisällä uskaltautua keskustelemaan.

OALC:n tilanne on sikäli Pohjoismaita surkeampi, että he lähtivät jo 1870-luvulla rakentamaan omaa kirkkoaan, jolla on selvät lahkolaisuuden mielipiteet.
Asiaa ei voi muuksi muuttaa, mutta se on vaikuttanut esimerkiksi seurakuntaoppiin.
Kun yhteisö on lisäksi täysin sisäänlämpiävä, on varmasti vaikeaa.

Kiitos kun et suoraan olettanut, että motiivini ovat ikävät. Tuli kirjoitettua tuo viesti vähän kiireessä ja siihen tuli vähän väärä sävy.

Ihmettelin vain sitä, että kun joitakin aikoja sitten esikoislestadiolaisuudesta ei löytynyt netistä mitään, niin nyt tällaisia ex-OALC-sivustoja alkaa olla useita. Tämä, johon linkitin, lienee niistä se, jota voi luonnehtia sanalla törky.

vl2003 kirjoitti:

Kiitos kun et suoraan olettanut, että motiivini ovat ikävät. Tuli kirjoitettua tuo viesti vähän kiireessä ja siihen tuli vähän väärä sävy.

Ihmettelin vain sitä, että kun joitakin aikoja sitten esikoislestadiolaisuudesta ei löytynyt netistä mitään, niin nyt tällaisia ex-OALC-sivustoja alkaa olla useita. Tämä, johon linkitin, lienee niistä se, jota voi luonnehtia sanalla törky.

Lue lisää

Kiitos että kommentoit kirjoitustani, nyt selvittiin sitten väärinkäsityksistä.

Lueskelin sivuja uudelleen ja samankaltaisuutta tuntuu löytyvän ehkäpä juuri vanhoillispalstan ja linkkisi välillä siinä suhteessa, että molemmilla palstoilla ulkopuoliset keskustelijat tuulettelevat ennaakokäsityksiään - joko saaden uutta ajattelemista, mikäli joku "oikea" vanhoillinen tai Oalc:läinen vastaa asiallisesti - tai lisää tuulta purjeisiin entisen jostakin syystä katkeroituneen henkilön vastauksista.( ainakin puheet siitä, että OALC:ssa Raamtunlukeminen olisi kielletty kuullostaa valheelta, mutta näin joku entinen OALC:l'äinen väitti)

Uskon, että miltei jokaisessa hengellisessä ryhmässä on entisiä jäseniä, jotka ovat jostakin syystä kokeneet(eivät vain kokeneet, vaan myös tulleet) tulleensa kaltoin kohdelluksi, jopa erotetuksi.

Ei ole rakentavaa mittelöidä, missä "puljussa" pyykkiä tulisi eniten pestä, tärkeämpää olisi se, että voisimme estää syrjäytymistä ja poisleikkaamista keskustellen ainakin omien ryhmiemme sisäpuolella. Eikö näiden palstojen olemassaolo ole osoitus siitä, että keskusteluntarvetta on.
Hyvää illanjatkoa Sinulle Vl2003 t pohjanakka

pohjanakka kirjoitti:

Kiitos että kommentoit kirjoitustani, nyt selvittiin sitten väärinkäsityksistä.

Lueskelin sivuja uudelleen ja samankaltaisuutta tuntuu löytyvän ehkäpä juuri vanhoillispalstan ja linkkisi välillä siinä suhteessa, että molemmilla palstoilla ulkopuoliset keskustelijat tuulettelevat ennaakokäsityksiään - joko saaden uutta ajattelemista, mikäli joku "oikea" vanhoillinen tai Oalc:läinen vastaa asiallisesti - tai lisää tuulta purjeisiin entisen jostakin syystä katkeroituneen henkilön vastauksista.( ainakin puheet siitä, että OALC:ssa Raamtunlukeminen olisi kielletty kuullostaa valheelta, mutta näin joku entinen OALC:l'äinen väitti)

Uskon, että miltei jokaisessa hengellisessä ryhmässä on entisiä jäseniä, jotka ovat jostakin syystä kokeneet(eivät vain kokeneet, vaan myös tulleet) tulleensa kaltoin kohdelluksi, jopa erotetuksi.

Ei ole rakentavaa mittelöidä, missä "puljussa" pyykkiä tulisi eniten pestä, tärkeämpää olisi se, että voisimme estää syrjäytymistä ja poisleikkaamista keskustellen ainakin omien ryhmiemme sisäpuolella. Eikö näiden palstojen olemassaolo ole osoitus siitä, että keskusteluntarvetta on.
Hyvää illanjatkoa Sinulle Vl2003 t pohjanakka

Lue lisää

ihminen noihin väitteisiin? Raamatun lukemisen kielto! Lasten seksuaalinen hyväksikäyttö ja sen yleisyys ongelmana jos nyt oikein muistan lukeneeni OALC-sepusteesta! Ja että usko ja luottamus asetetaan vain Lapin vanhimpiin, kristityhin ja saarnaajiin, eikä Kristukseen! Missähän tällaista on opetettu? Ei varmaankaan missään lestadiolaissuunnassa. Kyllä Kristus ja hänen lunastustyönsä on se, jonka päälle kaikki saarnat ja saarnaajat tarkoittavat kiinnittää uskovien sydämet! Koko sepustus on ilkeämielistä ja saatanallista valhetta.

Old Cristian kirjoitti:

ihminen noihin väitteisiin? Raamatun lukemisen kielto! Lasten seksuaalinen hyväksikäyttö ja sen yleisyys ongelmana jos nyt oikein muistan lukeneeni OALC-sepusteesta! Ja että usko ja luottamus asetetaan vain Lapin vanhimpiin, kristityhin ja saarnaajiin, eikä Kristukseen! Missähän tällaista on opetettu? Ei varmaankaan missään lestadiolaissuunnassa. Kyllä Kristus ja hänen lunastustyönsä on se, jonka päälle kaikki saarnat ja saarnaajat tarkoittavat kiinnittää uskovien sydämet! Koko sepustus on ilkeämielistä ja saatanallista valhetta.

Lue lisää

Tottahan se on

Old Cristian kirjoitti:

ihminen noihin väitteisiin? Raamatun lukemisen kielto! Lasten seksuaalinen hyväksikäyttö ja sen yleisyys ongelmana jos nyt oikein muistan lukeneeni OALC-sepusteesta! Ja että usko ja luottamus asetetaan vain Lapin vanhimpiin, kristityhin ja saarnaajiin, eikä Kristukseen! Missähän tällaista on opetettu? Ei varmaankaan missään lestadiolaissuunnassa. Kyllä Kristus ja hänen lunastustyönsä on se, jonka päälle kaikki saarnat ja saarnaajat tarkoittavat kiinnittää uskovien sydämet! Koko sepustus on ilkeämielistä ja saatanallista valhetta.

Lue lisää

Kyllä mielestäni Suomen esikoisuudessa on samoja piirteitä ainakin seuraavissa asioissa.
1. Raamatun lukemisen kielto!

"Kyllä sitä pidetään paremmin saarnaajien kirjana. Sen lukemista ei suosita. Siitä tai sen vaikesta kohdista kysyminenkin koetaan kiusallisena.

Edelleen saarnaajatkin saarnaavat vain tietyistä kohdista. Ja itse tunnen saarnaajan, joka ensimmäiset kolme vuotta pärjäsi aivan samalla tekstillä. Oli hyvä saarna - miksi sitä muuttelemaan?"

2. "Ja että usko ja luottamus asetetaan vain Lapin vanhimpiin, kristityhin ja saarnaajiin, eikä Kristukseen! Missähän tällaista on opetettu?"

Kyllä Kristukseen periaatteessa uskotaan, mutta kolmen kyynärän jumalan kautta ja näitä varsinaisia välittäjiä ovat saarnaajat ja Lapin pojat. Ihmiset kyselee aivan tyhmiäkin Lapin saarnaajilta - sellaisia adiaforajuttuja, jotka voi normaali ihminen ratkaista järjellä.

3. "Koko sepustus on ilkeämielistä ja saatanallista valhetta."

Hyvin samanlaisista asioista puhutaan nyt täällä Pohjoismaissa. Onko se ilkeämielistä, että kipukohtia nostetaan esille.

Tai onhan se sellaista, että ne kyselijät voi paiskata helvettiin ja ilkkua perään, että tulkaa minulta oppimaan valkeutta.

El Bimbo

Ylläpitäjä oli ainakin Washingtonista.

niin? kirjoitti:

Ylläpitäjä oli ainakin Washingtonista.

kirjoittaa vaikka mihin. Voisin siirtää kotisivuni ylläpidon osoitteen vaikka Sydneyhin! Verkko kyllä toimii.

IT-Special kirjoitti:

kirjoittaa vaikka mihin. Voisin siirtää kotisivuni ylläpidon osoitteen vaikka Sydneyhin! Verkko kyllä toimii.

Ihan pakko puuttua tähän, vaikka en ensin ajatellut. Tunnen nimittäin kyseisen sivuston takana olevan perheen henkilökohtaisesti, ja voin vakuuttaa, että he ovat ihan oikeasti Yhdysvalloissa Washingtonin valtiossa asuvia ja entisiä OALC:in jäseniä. Olen mailannut sivujen ylläpitäjälle linkin tähän keskusteluun, mutta ainakaan vielä hän ei ole kommentoinut. Tosin voi olla vaikea kommentoida, jos ei ymmärrä keskustelun kieltä...

el-kirahwi kirjoitti:

Ihan pakko puuttua tähän, vaikka en ensin ajatellut. Tunnen nimittäin kyseisen sivuston takana olevan perheen henkilökohtaisesti, ja voin vakuuttaa, että he ovat ihan oikeasti Yhdysvalloissa Washingtonin valtiossa asuvia ja entisiä OALC:in jäseniä. Olen mailannut sivujen ylläpitäjälle linkin tähän keskusteluun, mutta ainakaan vielä hän ei ole kommentoinut. Tosin voi olla vaikea kommentoida, jos ei ymmärrä keskustelun kieltä...

Lue lisää

Erityisesti minua ihmetytti kyseisen sivuston väite lasten seksuaalisen hyväksikäytön laajuudesta Amerikan esikoislestadiolaisuudessa. USAssa tuollaisista väitteistä joutuu käsittääkseni helposti vastaamaan oikeudenkäynnistä, jos OALC päättäisi alkaa puolustamaan kunniaansa. (Ellei pysty todistamaan väitteitään - ja jos pystyy, niin silloin olisi velvollisuus mennä viranomaisten puheille joka tapauksessa).

Väärinkäsitysten välttämiseksi totean vielä kerran, että mielestäni sivu on törkyä.

vl2003 kirjoitti:

Erityisesti minua ihmetytti kyseisen sivuston väite lasten seksuaalisen hyväksikäytön laajuudesta Amerikan esikoislestadiolaisuudessa. USAssa tuollaisista väitteistä joutuu käsittääkseni helposti vastaamaan oikeudenkäynnistä, jos OALC päättäisi alkaa puolustamaan kunniaansa. (Ellei pysty todistamaan väitteitään - ja jos pystyy, niin silloin olisi velvollisuus mennä viranomaisten puheille joka tapauksessa).

Väärinkäsitysten välttämiseksi totean vielä kerran, että mielestäni sivu on törkyä.

Lue lisää

Se riippuu varmaan vähän siitä, miten "suuri ongelma" määritellään. Tiedän että heillä on tiedossaan useita varmoja tapauksia, mutta miten monia tapauksia vaaditaan, että voidaan puhua suuresta ongelmasta? Esikoislestadiolaisessa kulttuurissa on perinteisesti suhtauduttu varsin pidättyvästi oikeusprosesseihin, enkä siksi usko, että OALC lähtisi senkään vuoksi mihinkään sellaiseen. Ja toisaalta en usko, että OALC on kovinkaan halukas vetämään median huomiota puoleensa ja saamaan "pedofiililahkon" leimaa.

el-kirahwi kirjoitti:

Ihan pakko puuttua tähän, vaikka en ensin ajatellut. Tunnen nimittäin kyseisen sivuston takana olevan perheen henkilökohtaisesti, ja voin vakuuttaa, että he ovat ihan oikeasti Yhdysvalloissa Washingtonin valtiossa asuvia ja entisiä OALC:in jäseniä. Olen mailannut sivujen ylläpitäjälle linkin tähän keskusteluun, mutta ainakaan vielä hän ei ole kommentoinut. Tosin voi olla vaikea kommentoida, jos ei ymmärrä keskustelun kieltä...

Lue lisää

Oliko sopivaa leuhkia kontakteillaan täällä.

vl2003 kirjoitti:

Erityisesti minua ihmetytti kyseisen sivuston väite lasten seksuaalisen hyväksikäytön laajuudesta Amerikan esikoislestadiolaisuudessa. USAssa tuollaisista väitteistä joutuu käsittääkseni helposti vastaamaan oikeudenkäynnistä, jos OALC päättäisi alkaa puolustamaan kunniaansa. (Ellei pysty todistamaan väitteitään - ja jos pystyy, niin silloin olisi velvollisuus mennä viranomaisten puheille joka tapauksessa).

Väärinkäsitysten välttämiseksi totean vielä kerran, että mielestäni sivu on törkyä.

Lue lisää

My Finnish is pretty limited, so I am trying to muddle through this. But one thing I did get...
You think my site is garbage because... (why???)... I addressed an issue nobody wants talked about. It's not an imaginary one. I know at least fifty people who have been affected by it, including my own child. None of the cases have been handled.
I may try to wade through all these posts, but honestly I just write what God lays on my heart, and I'm not trying to win a popularity contest.
Everybody's free to their own opinions.

perheen nimikin paljastettua kirjoitti:

Oliko sopivaa leuhkia kontakteillaan täällä.

Enhän minä nimeä kertonut, sanoin vain tuntevani, ja minä tunnen lukemattomia amerikkalaisia. Miksi se olisi muuten "leuhkimista"? Onko sinusta sitten jotenkin hienoa tuntea amerikkalaisia? Minusta amerikkalaiset ovat ihan tavallisia ihmisiä, eikä siinä ole mitään sen ihmeellisempää.

exoalc kirjoitti:

My Finnish is pretty limited, so I am trying to muddle through this. But one thing I did get...
You think my site is garbage because... (why???)... I addressed an issue nobody wants talked about. It's not an imaginary one. I know at least fifty people who have been affected by it, including my own child. None of the cases have been handled.
I may try to wade through all these posts, but honestly I just write what God lays on my heart, and I'm not trying to win a popularity contest.
Everybody's free to their own opinions.

Lue lisää

You write on your pages about the AOLC doctrine as such which is not true. There surely are people thinkin' in that way you write. But there are also a big number of Chirtians thinking according to the Holy Scripters. I know many Christians, brothers and sisters, believing and trusting God and Jesus Christ.
But I also know there is the self righteosness lifting up his head. And there is a lot of sin and overcomings. There are many sinfull and bad persons and also false prophets rising up.
But all those proplems do not make the whole congrecation as you are writing.
As it is written:
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."
This is a heavy place for all of us striving the way of life. Often bitterness over takes us and many other sins. And very easily we all can fall sin and still don't recognise our own sins but just we recognise the sins of others.

But there is a time of grace of God still being in power in the Kingdom of God. And the forgiveness of sins are still preaching for all penitent sinful ones. And we have the victory only in the Lord Jesus, our savior. He is the only place for the shelter and refuge. He has taken away all the sins of the world and everyone trusting and believing in Him do not die for ever.

exoalc kirjoitti:

My Finnish is pretty limited, so I am trying to muddle through this. But one thing I did get...
You think my site is garbage because... (why???)... I addressed an issue nobody wants talked about. It's not an imaginary one. I know at least fifty people who have been affected by it, including my own child. None of the cases have been handled.
I may try to wade through all these posts, but honestly I just write what God lays on my heart, and I'm not trying to win a popularity contest.
Everybody's free to their own opinions.

Lue lisää

The letters went in the wrong order. Should be the OALC (The Old Apostolic Lutheran Church).
Edellisessä kirjoituksessa menivät kirjaimet sekaisin, joka nyt siis tuli korjattua.

jorkkamainio kirjoitti:

You write on your pages about the AOLC doctrine as such which is not true. There surely are people thinkin' in that way you write. But there are also a big number of Chirtians thinking according to the Holy Scripters. I know many Christians, brothers and sisters, believing and trusting God and Jesus Christ.
But I also know there is the self righteosness lifting up his head. And there is a lot of sin and overcomings. There are many sinfull and bad persons and also false prophets rising up.
But all those proplems do not make the whole congrecation as you are writing.
As it is written:
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."
This is a heavy place for all of us striving the way of life. Often bitterness over takes us and many other sins. And very easily we all can fall sin and still don't recognise our own sins but just we recognise the sins of others.

But there is a time of grace of God still being in power in the Kingdom of God. And the forgiveness of sins are still preaching for all penitent sinful ones. And we have the victory only in the Lord Jesus, our savior. He is the only place for the shelter and refuge. He has taken away all the sins of the world and everyone trusting and believing in Him do not die for ever.

Lue lisää

Hello.
I only write of what I know, which is the OALC in America. I have had lengthy discussions with the preachers who, along with their church books, will confirm what I have written.
If things are different other places, that is wonderful. However, I have listened to the elders, who decide the doctrine, and they also tell the same story.
I believe there are people in the OALC who are saved. But it is IN SPITE of the teachings, not because of them. They do not point to Christ alone for salvation of your soul.
The people there are dearly loved by God, but the doctrine is from the pit.

perheen nimikin paljastettua kirjoitti:

Oliko sopivaa leuhkia kontakteillaan täällä.

If anyone looks at the site, they will recognize the sign is from Washington.
Other than that, my identity is pretty safe.
It's not a secret, but I do recognize from the content that I am not a favorite on this page.

exoalc kirjoitti:

If anyone looks at the site, they will recognize the sign is from Washington.
Other than that, my identity is pretty safe.
It's not a secret, but I do recognize from the content that I am not a favorite on this page.

Lue lisää

It is not about being favourite or not. It is about truth. As long as what you tell on your page about child abuse is true it is Ok. Sometimes there is not other ways to handle this kind of crimes than publicity.
"the truth shall set you free" as it says in the Bible

exoalc kirjoitti:

Hello.
I only write of what I know, which is the OALC in America. I have had lengthy discussions with the preachers who, along with their church books, will confirm what I have written.
If things are different other places, that is wonderful. However, I have listened to the elders, who decide the doctrine, and they also tell the same story.
I believe there are people in the OALC who are saved. But it is IN SPITE of the teachings, not because of them. They do not point to Christ alone for salvation of your soul.
The people there are dearly loved by God, but the doctrine is from the pit.

Lue lisää

I have visited America a few times and been able to hear the Word of God in the OALC meetings. But surely it has happend many years ago. In that time I was able to hear the Holy Word preaching according to The Holy Bible. And the only salvation was preached in Jesus Chirst even in very powerfull way.
But ofcourse I heard bad words too. And lot's of ungodliness and so on. But God has mercy also over them who has falled away from the narrow road of life. It is only if they know the sins of their own and become to notice to be lost and have no other joice but strongly sigh to God. And we are sure God will come and show His Son who is taken away all the sin. In Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, is the only righteousness acceptable to God. And this I was able to experience in many meetings and in many locality and in cities where I had opportunity to visit.

And I do not lie, because of Jeesus Christ. And I really want all men could understand the faith in the Lord Jeesus. Again I say: the only salvation is in Him, verily. The Glory may be giving to God and to the Lamb.

Suomeksi:
Minulla on ollut mahdollisuus vierailla muutamia kertoja Amerikassa ja myös kuulemassa Jumalan Sanaa esikoislestadiolaisten(OALC) seuroissa. Vierailuistani tosin on aikaa jo vuosia. Noina kertoina sain seuroissa kuunnella puhdasta Jumalansanaa, joka perustui Pyhään Raamattuun. Ja siellä saarnattiin voimallisesti ainoan tien pelastukseen olevan Jeesuksessa Kristuksessa.
Mutta toki kuulin myös pahoja ja taitamattomia sanoja. Ja näin myös jumalatonta elämää heidän keskuudessa. Mutta Jumala on armollinen myös niille, jotka ovat langenneet pois kaidalta elämän tieltä. Jos he vain tulevat tuntemaan omat syntinsä ja huomaavat oman kadotetun tilansa ja kokevat ainoaksi vaihtoehdoksi huoata Jumalan puoleen. Olemme varmat siitä, että Jumala tulee heitä vastaan ja näyttää Poikaansa, joka ottaa pois kaikki maailman synnit. Jeesuksessa Kristuksessa, meidän Lunastajassamme ja Vapahtajassamme, on ainoa vanhurskaus, joka on kelvollinen Jumalalle. Ja tätä sain kokea eri paikkakunnilla ja kaupungeissa, joissa minulla oli mahdollisuutta vierailla.

Ja minä en valehtele Jeesuksen Kristuksen tähden. Ja todella toivon, että kaikki ihmiset käsittäisivät uskon Herraan Jeesukseen. Ja vielä sanon: Ainoa pelastus on Jeesuksessa Kristuksessa, totisesti. Kunnia olkoon Jumalalle ja Karitsalle.

exoalc kirjoitti:

My Finnish is pretty limited, so I am trying to muddle through this. But one thing I did get...
You think my site is garbage because... (why???)... I addressed an issue nobody wants talked about. It's not an imaginary one. I know at least fifty people who have been affected by it, including my own child. None of the cases have been handled.
I may try to wade through all these posts, but honestly I just write what God lays on my heart, and I'm not trying to win a popularity contest.
Everybody's free to their own opinions.

Lue lisää

From time to time, we are seeing on this discussion forum claims of child abuse being very common in the Laestadian rauhanyhdistys in Finland (LLC or Laestadian Lutheran Church in US). Usually you can easily see that these claims are unfounded. We have also seen a lot of garbage from people who have very little actual knowledge on the Laestadian movement.

My personal belief is that firstborn Laestadians (OALC) is a heresy, and I have no need to discuss their doctrine or teachings. However, with the background of having all the garbage in this forum, I reacted a bit too quickly to your claims about the sexual abuse. Please accept my apologies. Especially because of your familys bad experience, you certainly have the right to tell your opinions even in a bit negative way.

What comes to the actual topic, which is child abuse, I hope you reported the case to the authorities? I do not know how OALC teasches, but in the Laestadian rauhanyhdistys we strongly believe that when serious crimes are committed, it is not enough with the forgiveness of sins alone, but you also need to try to correct as much as possible also with the authorities. At least today with lots of media attention to these cases in the catholic chirhc, I am quite certain that if there ever was a child abuse case in my congregation, it would be reported to the police straight away.

el-kirahwi kirjoitti:

Enhän minä nimeä kertonut, sanoin vain tuntevani, ja minä tunnen lukemattomia amerikkalaisia. Miksi se olisi muuten "leuhkimista"? Onko sinusta sitten jotenkin hienoa tuntea amerikkalaisia? Minusta amerikkalaiset ovat ihan tavallisia ihmisiä, eikä siinä ole mitään sen ihmeellisempää.

Lue lisää

Se voidaan hyvin tietää ketä sinä tarkoitit
Älä sotke tähän amer tuntemisia

exoalc kirjoitti:

My Finnish is pretty limited, so I am trying to muddle through this. But one thing I did get...
You think my site is garbage because... (why???)... I addressed an issue nobody wants talked about. It's not an imaginary one. I know at least fifty people who have been affected by it, including my own child. None of the cases have been handled.
I may try to wade through all these posts, but honestly I just write what God lays on my heart, and I'm not trying to win a popularity contest.
Everybody's free to their own opinions.

Lue lisää

Tell us exactly the facts of your doctrin.
I am pleaesed to hear and I am pleased to see, whether there is any light to be seen among
the missslead Christians of OALC.
I am an European, so I am not trying to harm you.

I am very eager to see, what is your issue?
Can you tell me?

exoalc kirjoitti:

Hello.
I only write of what I know, which is the OALC in America. I have had lengthy discussions with the preachers who, along with their church books, will confirm what I have written.
If things are different other places, that is wonderful. However, I have listened to the elders, who decide the doctrine, and they also tell the same story.
I believe there are people in the OALC who are saved. But it is IN SPITE of the teachings, not because of them. They do not point to Christ alone for salvation of your soul.
The people there are dearly loved by God, but the doctrine is from the pit.

Lue lisää

You should read Martin Luther.
The Missouri Synode has much translations, I think. Ask them, whether they have the
l a t t e r Comment on the Letter to the Galathians translated in English. That might strenghten your soul and open your eyes even more wide.

The problem of OALC doctrine is, as far as I understand, in the contradiction in few basic
teachings:
The congregation, totally
The salvation badly contamined by self righteousnes
The teaching of sanctity
How Sin is understood
----------
Let us speak strightly of these topics, otherwise you have to argue for ever on vague terms of
emotions and superstitions.

With Gods Peace wishes on you
Larry-Levian

jorkkamainio kirjoitti:

I have visited America a few times and been able to hear the Word of God in the OALC meetings. But surely it has happend many years ago. In that time I was able to hear the Holy Word preaching according to The Holy Bible. And the only salvation was preached in Jesus Chirst even in very powerfull way.
But ofcourse I heard bad words too. And lot's of ungodliness and so on. But God has mercy also over them who has falled away from the narrow road of life. It is only if they know the sins of their own and become to notice to be lost and have no other joice but strongly sigh to God. And we are sure God will come and show His Son who is taken away all the sin. In Jesus Christ, our Redeemer and Savior, is the only righteousness acceptable to God. And this I was able to experience in many meetings and in many locality and in cities where I had opportunity to visit.

And I do not lie, because of Jeesus Christ. And I really want all men could understand the faith in the Lord Jeesus. Again I say: the only salvation is in Him, verily. The Glory may be giving to God and to the Lamb.

Suomeksi:
Minulla on ollut mahdollisuus vierailla muutamia kertoja Amerikassa ja myös kuulemassa Jumalan Sanaa esikoislestadiolaisten(OALC) seuroissa. Vierailuistani tosin on aikaa jo vuosia. Noina kertoina sain seuroissa kuunnella puhdasta Jumalansanaa, joka perustui Pyhään Raamattuun. Ja siellä saarnattiin voimallisesti ainoan tien pelastukseen olevan Jeesuksessa Kristuksessa.
Mutta toki kuulin myös pahoja ja taitamattomia sanoja. Ja näin myös jumalatonta elämää heidän keskuudessa. Mutta Jumala on armollinen myös niille, jotka ovat langenneet pois kaidalta elämän tieltä. Jos he vain tulevat tuntemaan omat syntinsä ja huomaavat oman kadotetun tilansa ja kokevat ainoaksi vaihtoehdoksi huoata Jumalan puoleen. Olemme varmat siitä, että Jumala tulee heitä vastaan ja näyttää Poikaansa, joka ottaa pois kaikki maailman synnit. Jeesuksessa Kristuksessa, meidän Lunastajassamme ja Vapahtajassamme, on ainoa vanhurskaus, joka on kelvollinen Jumalalle. Ja tätä sain kokea eri paikkakunnilla ja kaupungeissa, joissa minulla oli mahdollisuutta vierailla.

Ja minä en valehtele Jeesuksen Kristuksen tähden. Ja todella toivon, että kaikki ihmiset käsittäisivät uskon Herraan Jeesukseen. Ja vielä sanon: Ainoa pelastus on Jeesuksessa Kristuksessa, totisesti. Kunnia olkoon Jumalalle ja Karitsalle.

Lue lisää

Sir,
That is an interesting experience, and it is also interesting that you do not believe me. But it doesn't affect what I say, and here's why: People are being deceived, and I don't want them to spend eternity in hell.

I do understand that legalism understands itself, but it doesn't understand liberty in Christ. Therefore I have some questions for you:

1>You say you believe in salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. Do you believe that there can be conversion, or rebirth outside of a congregation. In other words, can God save someone without the help of another person, or is He limited to forgiveness of sins within a specific congregation.

The OALC teaches that you CANNOT be saved unless you walk through their doors. I challenge you to call these people that you felt fellowship with and ask them whether or not they believe you are a Christian. I will guarantee they do not believe you are saved.

2> Do you believe that if a person sins they "fall from grace" or lose their salvation? If this were so, than it would be our sinless state that kept us saved, NOT what Jesus did on the cross. Your letter strongly suggests that is your belief.

3> Do you believe that Scripture has hidden spiritual meaning, that each passage actually means something else and it is dangerous for individuals to study the Bible without knowledge of these "spiritual meanings"? This confuses the pure and clear word of God.

4>Do you believe the Holy Spirit can and will convict a believer of sin, or do you feel it is the church's responsibility to hammer down on the individual, shaming them to conform to their rules and religious rituals.

Mankind has placed a God of wonders, who spoke the worlds into existence, into a tiny box of religion. Instead of teaching the relationship with God that the saints had, they instead look to tradition and ritual.

Legalism is very confusing, as someone else has noted. Confusion is never from God.

Therefore, if you are going to accuse me of lying, (or bearing false witness), I want you to state your case. Go back to my site, and open the page "what we believe". Tell me where you feel I am wrong.

I am not talking about critically looking for sin or bad words or whatever in the people. I am talking about what comes from the preachers mouths, who condemn ALL others (including you, if you don't attend their church) as dead faith.

Thank you.

vl2003 kirjoitti:

From time to time, we are seeing on this discussion forum claims of child abuse being very common in the Laestadian rauhanyhdistys in Finland (LLC or Laestadian Lutheran Church in US). Usually you can easily see that these claims are unfounded. We have also seen a lot of garbage from people who have very little actual knowledge on the Laestadian movement.

My personal belief is that firstborn Laestadians (OALC) is a heresy, and I have no need to discuss their doctrine or teachings. However, with the background of having all the garbage in this forum, I reacted a bit too quickly to your claims about the sexual abuse. Please accept my apologies. Especially because of your familys bad experience, you certainly have the right to tell your opinions even in a bit negative way.

What comes to the actual topic, which is child abuse, I hope you reported the case to the authorities? I do not know how OALC teasches, but in the Laestadian rauhanyhdistys we strongly believe that when serious crimes are committed, it is not enough with the forgiveness of sins alone, but you also need to try to correct as much as possible also with the authorities. At least today with lots of media attention to these cases in the catholic chirhc, I am quite certain that if there ever was a child abuse case in my congregation, it would be reported to the police straight away.

Lue lisää

First of all, I commend the LLC (or Laestadian rauhanyhdistys) for their responsible stance on child abuse and other serious crimes. The ALC in America, at least here in Washington, has also addressed the issue and gone as far as bringing in experts to encourage people on how to handle it. Unfortunately, the OALC chooses to close their eyes and ears.

A couple of months ago the problem was discussed on the American discussion pages, and a group of us decided to write a letter to one of the elders who was visiting. Thus far, he has not made any attempt to contact us. MANY of the posts on these discussions share stories of abuse, as well as email contact I have received and personal people in my family and outside. It just doesn't go away when ignored. The poor men who are caught in this cycle of sin are also not being offered an opportunity for victory.

Unfortunately, when it happened with my daughter, we were not in a strong place to go against the preacher's advice and contact the authorities. We did later (after we were out) but it was too late. I believe in a just God, though, who stands up for children. In the Old Testament, there were a lot of situations where people were offering up their children on the altar of religion. Matthew 18 clearly states what happens when we do not protect our babies.
God help us!

I had a friend whose 6-year old child was actually raped. It was never prosecuted.

I don't feel my response to child abuse was negative, just honest.

Larry-Levian kirjoitti:

You should read Martin Luther.
The Missouri Synode has much translations, I think. Ask them, whether they have the
l a t t e r Comment on the Letter to the Galathians translated in English. That might strenghten your soul and open your eyes even more wide.

The problem of OALC doctrine is, as far as I understand, in the contradiction in few basic
teachings:
The congregation, totally
The salvation badly contamined by self righteousnes
The teaching of sanctity
How Sin is understood
----------
Let us speak strightly of these topics, otherwise you have to argue for ever on vague terms of
emotions and superstitions.

With Gods Peace wishes on you
Larry-Levian

Lue lisää

Thank you, Larry.
I have read a bit of Martin Luther. What an amazing man. The religious people didn't much like him, though, because he took a stand against all the traditions and the corruption that was in their church. They didn't want anyone reading the Bible, and learning about freedom from religious ritual and making a stand as a result of relationship with God. But he stood firm, made a stand, and changed history.

I bet not very many people would have liked him if he would have put up a website like mine about the Catholic church.

I believe the number one problem with the OALC doctrine is this... they don't read the Word of God. Preachers select from only a few texts (it is good to read from the familiar place) and so they are missing the full counsel of God. Individuals very rarely pick up their Bibles and if they do, feel they don't understand a thing.

They are not taught about a salvation that was freely given on the cross, for ALL.

Grace is confused with works, and there are new "sins" constantly being created, so you never really know if you are towing the line or not. There is no assurance of salvation, it is like walking on the blade of a knife.

There is no relationship with God. They do not believe God is able to talk to His people anymore, so He must speak through the preachers. People do not have individual prayer lives.

The bottom line is... the church stands in for the finished work of Jesus, so there is no need for a personal Saviour. That is why I say, firmly and without question, the doctrine is not from God and therefore is from the pit.

jorkkamainio kirjoitti:

The letters went in the wrong order. Should be the OALC (The Old Apostolic Lutheran Church).
Edellisessä kirjoituksessa menivät kirjaimet sekaisin, joka nyt siis tuli korjattua.

Lue lisää

This has been copied from the site:
" Very few say that they have complete assurance of salvation, and they are taught that it is very easy to lose your grace to believe. It is likened to walking on the blade of a knife, one must be very careful not to fall to the right or to the left. I was told by one of the preachers that a person can go through their entire life with true and living faith, and lose it at the last hour."

The fact is very essentially the same in Scandinavia. They believe in the congregeation more than the Christ.
But Jeesus is supposed to be the Head.
And the congregation has not been crucifixed for the sins of you and me.
Very apparently the OALC follows the very doctrins of the Roman Cath Church, as to the congregation and its exclusive feature.

exoalc kirjoitti:

First of all, I commend the LLC (or Laestadian rauhanyhdistys) for their responsible stance on child abuse and other serious crimes. The ALC in America, at least here in Washington, has also addressed the issue and gone as far as bringing in experts to encourage people on how to handle it. Unfortunately, the OALC chooses to close their eyes and ears.

A couple of months ago the problem was discussed on the American discussion pages, and a group of us decided to write a letter to one of the elders who was visiting. Thus far, he has not made any attempt to contact us. MANY of the posts on these discussions share stories of abuse, as well as email contact I have received and personal people in my family and outside. It just doesn't go away when ignored. The poor men who are caught in this cycle of sin are also not being offered an opportunity for victory.

Unfortunately, when it happened with my daughter, we were not in a strong place to go against the preacher's advice and contact the authorities. We did later (after we were out) but it was too late. I believe in a just God, though, who stands up for children. In the Old Testament, there were a lot of situations where people were offering up their children on the altar of religion. Matthew 18 clearly states what happens when we do not protect our babies.
God help us!

I had a friend whose 6-year old child was actually raped. It was never prosecuted.

I don't feel my response to child abuse was negative, just honest.

Lue lisää

Sorry for being unclear. The child abuse part does not look negative when you have explained your background. You also have some very good advise on your web site (about not trusting anyone just because he or she is a fellow church member, a relative or a friend).

You are doing the right thing. The child molesters typically do not stop until they are stopped.

exoalc kirjoitti:

Thank you, Larry.
I have read a bit of Martin Luther. What an amazing man. The religious people didn't much like him, though, because he took a stand against all the traditions and the corruption that was in their church. They didn't want anyone reading the Bible, and learning about freedom from religious ritual and making a stand as a result of relationship with God. But he stood firm, made a stand, and changed history.

I bet not very many people would have liked him if he would have put up a website like mine about the Catholic church.

I believe the number one problem with the OALC doctrine is this... they don't read the Word of God. Preachers select from only a few texts (it is good to read from the familiar place) and so they are missing the full counsel of God. Individuals very rarely pick up their Bibles and if they do, feel they don't understand a thing.

They are not taught about a salvation that was freely given on the cross, for ALL.

Grace is confused with works, and there are new "sins" constantly being created, so you never really know if you are towing the line or not. There is no assurance of salvation, it is like walking on the blade of a knife.

There is no relationship with God. They do not believe God is able to talk to His people anymore, so He must speak through the preachers. People do not have individual prayer lives.

The bottom line is... the church stands in for the finished work of Jesus, so there is no need for a personal Saviour. That is why I say, firmly and without question, the doctrine is not from God and therefore is from the pit.

Lue lisää

Walkin on the kife's blade.
Here they say: walking on the edge of an axe(did I write correct)
That is a lie!

There is no blade, because the problem is not sin but unfaith! The God is always forgiving our sins, because He loves us, and He has chosen us.
THe blade: it comes from the wrong idea of sin.
They focuse on the doings, making sin. But, even we confess daily all the sins we remember, we are not clean, because sin is more than doings, it is our desire, in our flesh and blood.
Because it is there, we must accept us as we are
in front of the God: We are sinners and He has the right to throw us into Hell, if He wants...
We can never satisfy His righteous will.
But, He accepts us, exactly as we are.

So, we do not have the spirit of the salvery, but that of the dear child, who cries: Abba, dear Father....be mercy upon me..I will trust you have mercy on me, coz you have sent your son into the world, to wander among us as a man, on poverty and sufferings...

Yous seem to be in Southeast, as the name of the sign of revelas it to me. .

exoalc kirjoitti:

Sir,
That is an interesting experience, and it is also interesting that you do not believe me. But it doesn't affect what I say, and here's why: People are being deceived, and I don't want them to spend eternity in hell.

I do understand that legalism understands itself, but it doesn't understand liberty in Christ. Therefore I have some questions for you:

1>You say you believe in salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. Do you believe that there can be conversion, or rebirth outside of a congregation. In other words, can God save someone without the help of another person, or is He limited to forgiveness of sins within a specific congregation.

The OALC teaches that you CANNOT be saved unless you walk through their doors. I challenge you to call these people that you felt fellowship with and ask them whether or not they believe you are a Christian. I will guarantee they do not believe you are saved.

2> Do you believe that if a person sins they "fall from grace" or lose their salvation? If this were so, than it would be our sinless state that kept us saved, NOT what Jesus did on the cross. Your letter strongly suggests that is your belief.

3> Do you believe that Scripture has hidden spiritual meaning, that each passage actually means something else and it is dangerous for individuals to study the Bible without knowledge of these "spiritual meanings"? This confuses the pure and clear word of God.

4>Do you believe the Holy Spirit can and will convict a believer of sin, or do you feel it is the church's responsibility to hammer down on the individual, shaming them to conform to their rules and religious rituals.

Mankind has placed a God of wonders, who spoke the worlds into existence, into a tiny box of religion. Instead of teaching the relationship with God that the saints had, they instead look to tradition and ritual.

Legalism is very confusing, as someone else has noted. Confusion is never from God.

Therefore, if you are going to accuse me of lying, (or bearing false witness), I want you to state your case. Go back to my site, and open the page "what we believe". Tell me where you feel I am wrong.

I am not talking about critically looking for sin or bad words or whatever in the people. I am talking about what comes from the preachers mouths, who condemn ALL others (including you, if you don't attend their church) as dead faith.

Thank you.

Lue lisää

very good questions my friend. Jesus Christ is the only door to eternal life, not any movements doors.

exoalc kirjoitti:

If anyone looks at the site, they will recognize the sign is from Washington.
Other than that, my identity is pretty safe.
It's not a secret, but I do recognize from the content that I am not a favorite on this page.

Lue lisää

I have to apologize for my poor english..I made a comment to VL2003 about discussing the american oalc-site here, I asked about her/his motives for that knowing that he/she is not a member of the oalc and from my point of view (as a member of the firt-born)it felt unfair.

Child abuse and sexual abuse(?) are largely discussed all over in Europe and unfortenately these horrible things happen even i lestadian groups, even in church vl2003 belongs.

I think, just like many others that people committing these crimes are to be punished, they have to take responsibility for their deeds. Its not enough to talk with a preacher.

About the doctrines, I am a christian, believing that I am saved by the work of Jesus, only that. There are a lot of different people in the first-born-lestadian church, from different kind of backgrounds. I was pretty surprised to hear that members of the oalc dont encourage their children to take part of higher edúcation. It is the opposite way here in Europe.
The truth is going to be revealed, it is just so sad that you have to leave the church to be able to discuss matters that should be talked about in the church. God Bless You and your family.

The main point is of course the person that has been abused, he/she needs help.

exoalc kirjoitti:

Sir,
That is an interesting experience, and it is also interesting that you do not believe me. But it doesn't affect what I say, and here's why: People are being deceived, and I don't want them to spend eternity in hell.

I do understand that legalism understands itself, but it doesn't understand liberty in Christ. Therefore I have some questions for you:

1>You say you believe in salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. Do you believe that there can be conversion, or rebirth outside of a congregation. In other words, can God save someone without the help of another person, or is He limited to forgiveness of sins within a specific congregation.

The OALC teaches that you CANNOT be saved unless you walk through their doors. I challenge you to call these people that you felt fellowship with and ask them whether or not they believe you are a Christian. I will guarantee they do not believe you are saved.

2> Do you believe that if a person sins they "fall from grace" or lose their salvation? If this were so, than it would be our sinless state that kept us saved, NOT what Jesus did on the cross. Your letter strongly suggests that is your belief.

3> Do you believe that Scripture has hidden spiritual meaning, that each passage actually means something else and it is dangerous for individuals to study the Bible without knowledge of these "spiritual meanings"? This confuses the pure and clear word of God.

4>Do you believe the Holy Spirit can and will convict a believer of sin, or do you feel it is the church's responsibility to hammer down on the individual, shaming them to conform to their rules and religious rituals.

Mankind has placed a God of wonders, who spoke the worlds into existence, into a tiny box of religion. Instead of teaching the relationship with God that the saints had, they instead look to tradition and ritual.

Legalism is very confusing, as someone else has noted. Confusion is never from God.

Therefore, if you are going to accuse me of lying, (or bearing false witness), I want you to state your case. Go back to my site, and open the page "what we believe". Tell me where you feel I am wrong.

I am not talking about critically looking for sin or bad words or whatever in the people. I am talking about what comes from the preachers mouths, who condemn ALL others (including you, if you don't attend their church) as dead faith.

Thank you.

Lue lisää

Hello,

I want to answer to the questions of yours. But at first I have to point out that my English is not so good I could't understand everything in your site.

Secondly I say it again it is very many years ago I was able to visit the States at last time. And I do not know the situation in the OALC today. And for sure I have newer been able to know the whole truth of the OALC. Therefore I just talked about my own experiences. I was able to feel Jesus touching me many times in the meetings. I didn't know the soul condition of the preachers, but I believed the words in my own part. Your sins are forgiven in Jesus name. And this is my simple faith and I beleive this faith will take me to the heaven, when that time overtakes me. I do not need anything else, and I do not know you, but if you have just the same simple beleiving in your heart you are fortuned for ever because of Christ our Redeemer.

1. I believe the church(congrication) of Christ is the bride of Jesus. Everyone who believe in Jesus Christ is partaker of that church of Christ. And I think there are many we do not know who truly believe in God and Jesus Christ around the world. But I also think there are less men walking as alone by themselves. More I can not understand of this matter. God saves anyone He wants to.

2. Everyone who believs in Jesus will be saved. This is my simple faith. And even my sins are forgiven always through Jesus redemption work. I fall, but not out from grace. All sins can not separate me from my Savior and His grace. I have faith in my heart and noboby can not take it away. And this is a great Gift of God.

3. It is said in the Holy Bible, the matter of salvation is hidden for the wisdom of the world. But made known for poor ones. I do not know just the right words to write, but I hope you can understand me and my poor english.
But you might are meaning just something else. In the Bible there are just clear words to understand for all sorrowfull and wretched ones and those Words do not need any explanation.

4. Jesus Christ send the Holy Spirit into them believing Him. It is a teacher for us. But as you can notice when you read the Holy Scriptures, the apostles also teached christians in many matters. But in a simple way I am believing it was a labour of the Holy Spirit. And it was a great mercy of God to them. And when we read all scriptures in Bible we have to notice, that it was not question of legalism. But he who gives advice, may do it with love. But I do not know rituals you are taking about.

I do not know if you are writing truth of the OALC in your pages. But this is not my experience in times I was visiting the States and the OALC congrications.


If you have any questions, please, write me by e-mail. And let me know if you can understand Finnish. Because it's so difficult for me to read and also write in English. It takes so much time to search words in dictionary etc. :)

jorkkamainio kirjoitti:

Hello,

I want to answer to the questions of yours. But at first I have to point out that my English is not so good I could't understand everything in your site.

Secondly I say it again it is very many years ago I was able to visit the States at last time. And I do not know the situation in the OALC today. And for sure I have newer been able to know the whole truth of the OALC. Therefore I just talked about my own experiences. I was able to feel Jesus touching me many times in the meetings. I didn't know the soul condition of the preachers, but I believed the words in my own part. Your sins are forgiven in Jesus name. And this is my simple faith and I beleive this faith will take me to the heaven, when that time overtakes me. I do not need anything else, and I do not know you, but if you have just the same simple beleiving in your heart you are fortuned for ever because of Christ our Redeemer.

1. I believe the church(congrication) of Christ is the bride of Jesus. Everyone who believe in Jesus Christ is partaker of that church of Christ. And I think there are many we do not know who truly believe in God and Jesus Christ around the world. But I also think there are less men walking as alone by themselves. More I can not understand of this matter. God saves anyone He wants to.

2. Everyone who believs in Jesus will be saved. This is my simple faith. And even my sins are forgiven always through Jesus redemption work. I fall, but not out from grace. All sins can not separate me from my Savior and His grace. I have faith in my heart and noboby can not take it away. And this is a great Gift of God.

3. It is said in the Holy Bible, the matter of salvation is hidden for the wisdom of the world. But made known for poor ones. I do not know just the right words to write, but I hope you can understand me and my poor english.
But you might are meaning just something else. In the Bible there are just clear words to understand for all sorrowfull and wretched ones and those Words do not need any explanation.

4. Jesus Christ send the Holy Spirit into them believing Him. It is a teacher for us. But as you can notice when you read the Holy Scriptures, the apostles also teached christians in many matters. But in a simple way I am believing it was a labour of the Holy Spirit. And it was a great mercy of God to them. And when we read all scriptures in Bible we have to notice, that it was not question of legalism. But he who gives advice, may do it with love. But I do not know rituals you are taking about.

I do not know if you are writing truth of the OALC in your pages. But this is not my experience in times I was visiting the States and the OALC congrications.


If you have any questions, please, write me by e-mail. And let me know if you can understand Finnish. Because it's so difficult for me to read and also write in English. It takes so much time to search words in dictionary etc. :)

Lue lisää

Hello,

Can I ask what Laestadian denomination you are from?

So much of what you say I agree with entirely, but there is that occasional phrase that is entirely unbiblical. For example, the term "sorrowful and wretched". The idea is that if one is a believer they will walk around feeling terrible about themselves (such a poor, wretched sinner) and full of sorrow, as though that were somehow a noble virtue.

SORROWFUL: Take out a concordance and look up sorrow. There are certainly circumstances where sorrow is appropriate "There's a time for everything under heaven... a time to mourn"... "Godly sorrow leads to repentance". Count how many times sorrow appears in the Bible. Then look up joy. "The joy of the Lord is our strength" "The fruit of the Spirit is love, JOY, peace...", etc. Joy is so much more a result of faith than sorrow. Those who walk around with sad faces quite realistically have not embraced true salvation, and the amazing gift that was given us by Jesus atoning death.

WRETCHED: Somehow it seems like such a holy thing to focus on yourself, and your wretched, sinful, worm-like condition. It is a God-substitute, because our focus is taken off the finished work of the cross and placed on ourself. Of course we must ask God for humility and remember that we are but flesh. But our identity as born-again believers is found in Christ, and we are a new creation. God always reaffirms how much He loves us, so much He was willing to send His son to die on our behalf.

About Jesus ministering to you through the OALC preachers... #1) I am only 29. From what I understand, the church has changed a lot and there is much less emphasis on the Word than before and #2) Jesus is free to speak to anyone He wants wherever He wants, and use whatever venue He can. Sometimes He uses movies and books that are not even God-centered. Just because He uses them doesn't mean the source is good and #3) God's word is living and powerful and ANYWHERE that it is ever read it is able to penetrate the very soul.

I consider you a brother in Christ. I think we all need to remain teachable in spirit and humble in heart, asking God for the ability to do so.

I am sorry, my Finnish is very limited. I also tried to look up words in the dictionary, but I have to piece it all together. If you want to write in Finnish, go ahead, and I'll see what I can get out of it. I think your English is great, though. Much better than my Finnish.

Larry-Levin kirjoitti:

Walkin on the kife's blade.
Here they say: walking on the edge of an axe(did I write correct)
That is a lie!

There is no blade, because the problem is not sin but unfaith! The God is always forgiving our sins, because He loves us, and He has chosen us.
THe blade: it comes from the wrong idea of sin.
They focuse on the doings, making sin. But, even we confess daily all the sins we remember, we are not clean, because sin is more than doings, it is our desire, in our flesh and blood.
Because it is there, we must accept us as we are
in front of the God: We are sinners and He has the right to throw us into Hell, if He wants...
We can never satisfy His righteous will.
But, He accepts us, exactly as we are.

So, we do not have the spirit of the salvery, but that of the dear child, who cries: Abba, dear Father....be mercy upon me..I will trust you have mercy on me, coz you have sent your son into the world, to wander among us as a man, on poverty and sufferings...

Yous seem to be in Southeast, as the name of the sign of revelas it to me. .

Lue lisää

Larry,
Thank you... That is exactly true and put so well. Hebrews 4 talks about Abraham being justified by faith before the law was even instituted.
If anyone thinks about walking on the blade of a knife or an axe they will recognize 1) heaven is going to be empty, because nobody can do that 2) if you have to be careful not to fall off you are SAVING YOURSELF.
I, for one, prefer Jesus.
Thank you, brother.

The sign is from here in Washington, the northwest.

explainer kirjoitti:

I have to apologize for my poor english..I made a comment to VL2003 about discussing the american oalc-site here, I asked about her/his motives for that knowing that he/she is not a member of the oalc and from my point of view (as a member of the firt-born)it felt unfair.

Child abuse and sexual abuse(?) are largely discussed all over in Europe and unfortenately these horrible things happen even i lestadian groups, even in church vl2003 belongs.

I think, just like many others that people committing these crimes are to be punished, they have to take responsibility for their deeds. Its not enough to talk with a preacher.

About the doctrines, I am a christian, believing that I am saved by the work of Jesus, only that. There are a lot of different people in the first-born-lestadian church, from different kind of backgrounds. I was pretty surprised to hear that members of the oalc dont encourage their children to take part of higher edúcation. It is the opposite way here in Europe.
The truth is going to be revealed, it is just so sad that you have to leave the church to be able to discuss matters that should be talked about in the church. God Bless You and your family.

The main point is of course the person that has been abused, he/she needs help.

Lue lisää

Your English is terrific. It is my Finnish that needs help. I though you were questioning my motives in putting up the site.
Although that is a fair question, I think it is fascinating to pull back the curtains and see inside of other denominations. I have learned so much about other Laestadian churches since I left the OALC that I never knew.
I think it is great that there are people like you within the esikoislestadialaisuus(?) congregation. I have heard that the church in Finland is so different from the OALC in the US. I believe God's spirit is pouring out right now, and I would love to see the entire church turn to Jesus and become free of their bondage.

Praise God for you. God has a purpose and a plan for each one of us, and has put us exactly where He wants us for such a time as this.

About college, I believe that it is unfair to say higher education is not encouraged. While it is generally preached against for people to go away to college (which is silly, what better place to evangelize if you think you're the only one with the truth), in most of the midwest congregations a large percentage, even girls, go on to college. In this congregation (west coast) as well the east coast, most of the men do a construction-type job, and do not go to school. It is assumed that it is unnecessary for girls since they'll just get married and have children. Even here, some men and even some women go to college, although there is not much emphasis on education in general.
I think it is a cultural thing in Europe. Even where I grew up, there was much more of a focus on education then out here. I believe that was on the posts as someone's experience, but cannot be a general statement about doctrine.

exoalc kirjoitti:

Your English is terrific. It is my Finnish that needs help. I though you were questioning my motives in putting up the site.
Although that is a fair question, I think it is fascinating to pull back the curtains and see inside of other denominations. I have learned so much about other Laestadian churches since I left the OALC that I never knew.
I think it is great that there are people like you within the esikoislestadialaisuus(?) congregation. I have heard that the church in Finland is so different from the OALC in the US. I believe God's spirit is pouring out right now, and I would love to see the entire church turn to Jesus and become free of their bondage.

Praise God for you. God has a purpose and a plan for each one of us, and has put us exactly where He wants us for such a time as this.

About college, I believe that it is unfair to say higher education is not encouraged. While it is generally preached against for people to go away to college (which is silly, what better place to evangelize if you think you're the only one with the truth), in most of the midwest congregations a large percentage, even girls, go on to college. In this congregation (west coast) as well the east coast, most of the men do a construction-type job, and do not go to school. It is assumed that it is unnecessary for girls since they'll just get married and have children. Even here, some men and even some women go to college, although there is not much emphasis on education in general.
I think it is a cultural thing in Europe. Even where I grew up, there was much more of a focus on education then out here. I believe that was on the posts as someone's experience, but cannot be a general statement about doctrine.

Lue lisää

I have to write a little note even if Iam very tired after work...It was vl2003 that put the information of your site here, I was wondering about her motives because she is not a member of esikoislestadiolaiset. But its been straightened out, she did not mean to hurt anyone.
I am doing some research(maybe not the right word for it)and I am interested in talking with you, did you have some e-mail address that I could write to. Please let me know in case there is some address for me to write to. Sincerely

exoalc kirjoitti:

Hello,

Can I ask what Laestadian denomination you are from?

So much of what you say I agree with entirely, but there is that occasional phrase that is entirely unbiblical. For example, the term "sorrowful and wretched". The idea is that if one is a believer they will walk around feeling terrible about themselves (such a poor, wretched sinner) and full of sorrow, as though that were somehow a noble virtue.

SORROWFUL: Take out a concordance and look up sorrow. There are certainly circumstances where sorrow is appropriate "There's a time for everything under heaven... a time to mourn"... "Godly sorrow leads to repentance". Count how many times sorrow appears in the Bible. Then look up joy. "The joy of the Lord is our strength" "The fruit of the Spirit is love, JOY, peace...", etc. Joy is so much more a result of faith than sorrow. Those who walk around with sad faces quite realistically have not embraced true salvation, and the amazing gift that was given us by Jesus atoning death.

WRETCHED: Somehow it seems like such a holy thing to focus on yourself, and your wretched, sinful, worm-like condition. It is a God-substitute, because our focus is taken off the finished work of the cross and placed on ourself. Of course we must ask God for humility and remember that we are but flesh. But our identity as born-again believers is found in Christ, and we are a new creation. God always reaffirms how much He loves us, so much He was willing to send His son to die on our behalf.

About Jesus ministering to you through the OALC preachers... #1) I am only 29. From what I understand, the church has changed a lot and there is much less emphasis on the Word than before and #2) Jesus is free to speak to anyone He wants wherever He wants, and use whatever venue He can. Sometimes He uses movies and books that are not even God-centered. Just because He uses them doesn't mean the source is good and #3) God's word is living and powerful and ANYWHERE that it is ever read it is able to penetrate the very soul.

I consider you a brother in Christ. I think we all need to remain teachable in spirit and humble in heart, asking God for the ability to do so.

I am sorry, my Finnish is very limited. I also tried to look up words in the dictionary, but I have to piece it all together. If you want to write in Finnish, go ahead, and I'll see what I can get out of it. I think your English is great, though. Much better than my Finnish.

Lue lisää

Maybe my words are not so fitting and correct because of the language. But this I mean which I found in the Bible. This is King James version and I do not know if this is good English any longer. I don't eather know the version you are using. But I believe most of the translations are good and you can find the Holy Gospel in those.
There is also written of that same matter in many other places in the Bible. And in many different words.

Luke 4
"18. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."


And when you will receive the gospel in Jesus in faith and just as a gift from God you will joy and sing thank to God and to the Lamb. And this will come out from faith and it is the fruit of the Spirit.

God bless you!

exoalc kirjoitti:

Larry,
Thank you... That is exactly true and put so well. Hebrews 4 talks about Abraham being justified by faith before the law was even instituted.
If anyone thinks about walking on the blade of a knife or an axe they will recognize 1) heaven is going to be empty, because nobody can do that 2) if you have to be careful not to fall off you are SAVING YOURSELF.
I, for one, prefer Jesus.
Thank you, brother.

The sign is from here in Washington, the northwest.

Lue lisää

Thanks.
Well, very apparently I know your parents.
You are living there on the foot of Mount St. Helen. I was there long ago before the eruption. I might have overnighted at your parent's house.
------------
I would emphasize the importance of Martin Luther's writings.
------------
Few Norwegians wrote a good and valuable letter on the Christian doctrin and the problems we have in this christianity. You should have it translated, I do not know how....
---------------
Anyway, our hope in Jesus Christ and the word of God.
-------
Your after year I was taught, that my problem is sin and the mighty power of the wise devil. That is not true, my problem was unfaith. The Lord is hundred times more powerfull than the devil, He protects us, He has forgiven all our sins...

explainer kirjoitti:

I have to write a little note even if Iam very tired after work...It was vl2003 that put the information of your site here, I was wondering about her motives because she is not a member of esikoislestadiolaiset. But its been straightened out, she did not mean to hurt anyone.
I am doing some research(maybe not the right word for it)and I am interested in talking with you, did you have some e-mail address that I could write to. Please let me know in case there is some address for me to write to. Sincerely

Lue lisää

Hello,
I would love to communicate with you.
[email protected]
Thanks :)

Larry-Levin kirjoitti:

Thanks.
Well, very apparently I know your parents.
You are living there on the foot of Mount St. Helen. I was there long ago before the eruption. I might have overnighted at your parent's house.
------------
I would emphasize the importance of Martin Luther's writings.
------------
Few Norwegians wrote a good and valuable letter on the Christian doctrin and the problems we have in this christianity. You should have it translated, I do not know how....
---------------
Anyway, our hope in Jesus Christ and the word of God.
-------
Your after year I was taught, that my problem is sin and the mighty power of the wise devil. That is not true, my problem was unfaith. The Lord is hundred times more powerfull than the devil, He protects us, He has forgiven all our sins...

Lue lisää

I am not sure if you know my parents. I guess it is a possibility, they often go to Finland.
They don't live out here, though. They live in the midwest.
Have you been here often?

jorkkamainio kirjoitti:

Maybe my words are not so fitting and correct because of the language. But this I mean which I found in the Bible. This is King James version and I do not know if this is good English any longer. I don't eather know the version you are using. But I believe most of the translations are good and you can find the Holy Gospel in those.
There is also written of that same matter in many other places in the Bible. And in many different words.

Luke 4
"18. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."


And when you will receive the gospel in Jesus in faith and just as a gift from God you will joy and sing thank to God and to the Lamb. And this will come out from faith and it is the fruit of the Spirit.

God bless you!

Lue lisää

That is one of my favorite verses.
I have been blessed so many times, and He has done exactly that in my life.
God bless you also.

Täsmennettäköön, että kyseessä ei ole mikään "porukka", vaan OALC:ista eronneita yksilöitä, jotka siis käyvät eri kirkoissa. Tämän keskustelun alussa olevan linkin takana olevalla sivustolla tosin puhutaan me-muodossa, mutta tämä "me" on arveluni mukaan sivuston ylläpitäjä puolisoineen, jotka molemmat ovat entisiä OALC:ilaisia. Kyseiseltä sivustolta on linkit kahdelle blogille, joita ylläpitää kaksi entistä OALC:ilaista. Blogeihin voi kuka tahansa kirjoittaa kommentteja, ja näiden kommenttien kirjoittajistakin osa sanoo olevansa entisiä OALC:ilaisia. Ylläpitäjien taustat, yhtä blogien ylläpitäjää lukuunottamatta, tunnen sen verran tarkasti, että voin vakuuttaa heidän olevan oikeasti entisiä OALC:ilaisia.

Kontaktin ottoihin en osaa ottaa kantaa. Jokainen on erilainen yksilö, ja kaikkien kesken yhteydenpito ei vain toimi. Ja toisaalta asia riippuu varmaan myös siitä, millä tavalla kontaktia otetaan. Itse en esimerkiksi välttämättä olisi kauhean innostunut esimerkiksi tuomitsevista tai hyökkäävistä yhteydenotoista tai jos joku tuntematon ihminen pyrkii utelemaan kaikenlaista omista taustoistani.